Curio & Relics liscense q's

[hornadylnl]

I just printed the ATF F 7CR form and was thinking about filling it out. I've thought about doing it for a long time. I started reading the form and saw that I have to give a copy to the local Chief Law Enforcement Officer. In my case, that would be the county sheriff. ***? What happens if a future county sheriff doesn't like me? What happens with the bound book if I let the liscense expire? It's bad enough having uncle sam know what I have but I don't care for the idea of the county sheriff knowing what I have.

 

[rono]

I sent mine to the local sheriff never heard anything at all from him. I imagine most of them just toss it in the trash...

 

[ambush]

The only person that will know what you have is you. You keep the bound book. You do not have to share that info with local law enforcement. Its kept by you in case the feds ever want to see it. If/when your license expires, you are not required to turn the book in.

 

[hornadylnl]

Wouldn't the sheriff be legally obligated to file the form? What would the point of the requirement be if they don't file it? I've been known to voice my opinion on politics and enough people know my opinions around here. The sheriff is elected and what would happen if a new sheriff has a beef with my opinion?

From what I understand about a class 1 dealers liscence, you essentially give up your fourth amendment right. Would the atf have to have a warrant to come search my home? What happens to the guns I already own? Do they have to be logged into my book? Modern versus curio class guns that I already own? I figure I might as well put a big neon sign above my house that says "Come and confiscate mine" if I get any type of ffl.

 

[hornadylnl]

"Its kept by you in case the feds ever want to see it."

Does that require probable cause? Or can they show up any time they please without a warrant and strip my house to the foundation fishing for an illegal gun? I understand that I wouldn't have to give a record of every gun I own to the sheriff but what if a neighbor got pissed at me and called the cops. The sheriff says hey this guy has a gun liscense so we better come with the swat team. See where I'm going with this?

 

[Roccobro]

You have a duty to send a copy to the local chief LEO just to "notify". They have no say in the matter.

If you let your license lapse, you won't be able to get discounts and/or guns shipped to your door (legally).

I you do let it lapse, you can then hang onto the book ( I would for the feds), or toss it. Actually, your supposed to send a note to the ATF saying you are not renewing. Out of courtesy I presume.

Local officers won't know what you have, you only need to share the bound book info to an ATF agent when 1) he has a warrant for the info, or 2) maximum once a year does a business check (supposed to be for a "bona fide investigation" though).

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/howtogetyourcurionrelicffl03/index.asp

Quitting: Unlike an 01 dealer license, you do not need to turn in your records to ATF if you decide to quit. You should keep the records though.

Justin

 

[ambush]

The feds won't show up unless you give them a reason to. Chances are, if you do everything legally, you will never see an atf agent. Even if they call and want to do a "business" check, they will usually make an appointment after giving you notice. As far as pi**ing off the neighbors, well that's another story.

 

[Roccobro]

Q: With a C&R license, CAN or DOES ATF come for inspections to your home?

A: Pursuant to 27 CFR 478.23 (Right of entry and examination): (a) Except as provided in paragraph (b), any ATF officer, when there is reasonable cause to believe a violation of the Act has occurred and that evidence of the violation may be found on the premises of any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, may, upon demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate and obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry, enter during business hours (or, in the case of a licensed
collector, the hours of operation) the premises, including places of storage, of any such licensee for the purpose of inspecting or examining:

1.) Any records or documents required to be kept by such licensee under this part and
2.) Any inventory of firearms or ammunition kept or stored by any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer at such premises or any firearms curios or relics or ammunition kept or stored by any licensed collector at such premises.

(c) Any ATF officer, without having reasonable cause to believe a violation of the Act has occurred or that evidence of the violation may be found and without demonstrating such cause before a Federal magistrate or obtaining from the magistrate a warrant authorizing entry, may enter during hours of operation the premises, including places of storage, of any licensed collector for the purpose
of inspecting or examining the records, documents, firearms, and ammunition referred to in paragraph (a) of this section (1) for ensuring compliance with the recordkeeping requirements of this part not more than once during any 12-month period or (2) when such inspection or examination may be required for determining the disposition of one or more particular firearms in the course of
a bona fide criminal investigation. At the election of the licensed collector, the annual inspection permitted by this paragraph shall be performed at the ATF office responsible for conducting such inspection in the closest proximity to the collector's premises.

(d) The inspections and examinations provided by this section do not authorize an ATF officer to seize any records or documents other than those records or documents constituting material evidence of a violation of law. If an ATF officer seizes such records or documents, copies shall be provided the licensee
within a reasonable time.

Local cops still need to follow the bill of rights and would need a search warrant/consent to enter premises..


Sorry for the second post. You posted twice while I was typing the first time.

Justin

 

[hornadylnl]

The way I read that is that all of my ammo is now under the scrutiny of the atf. The more I read about it, the less I want the liscense. Here is a CMP question I have for you. I'd like to go to the CMP store and buy a few cases of 30/06 ammo. Can I walk in and pay cash for it without having to fill out any paperwork?

 

[ambush]

That I wouldn't know. But I doubt it, since its the CMP. Go check their website?

 

[hornadylnl]

I don't understand *** any ammo I have has to do with a c&r liscense. I don't believe that I should have to show an atf agent what ammo I have. The only purpose for that would be for them to notate whether or not I'm one of those shtf types.

Also, what happens to any current c&r class guns that I already own? Do they have to be logged into my book? If they come to look at my book, they will see that I have more c&r weapons than what is in the book. If the c&r guns that I already own were purchased with a form 4473, than I don't think I should have to log it in the book.

 

[CDignition]

Dont let all this mumbo jumbo scare ya...it is easy and worth doing..I just got mine, it only took 3 weeks from my mailing to me receiving it....I get the dealer rates for Brownells and other reloading shops now.. too cool..

 

[rritter]

Any C&R firearms you own before you get the C&R license don't have to be entered into the bound book. The book is only for tracking firearms you acquire while the license is valid. Note that you don't have to use the license to acquire the gun for it to have to be entered. If you inherit a C&R gun, or buy one from a private seller, you still have to enter it if the license is active.

 

[Roccobro]

You don't log previously owned firearms C&R or not. technically you've already had a background done on each of those, or PP transfer-i.e. legit buys. You get to keep all the C&R stuff bought after you let license laps. The log book is to show what you have been using your license to collect (in firearms). Firearms bought by any other means (PP transfer, 4473, etc) than under a C&R type are NOT logged! Some advocate this, but you are not an FFL01!

I don't know what they'd do with ammo info. Makes no sense to me, but if they were investigating a true crime, it might actually have a reason.


All I know is I've probably saved 10x what I've spent to get the C&R. Midwayusa and Brownells are my favorite places to "price check" anything before buying it NIB elsewhere. You get to see things others don't and can get certain guns without having to deal with a grouchy FFL who would tack $50 onto a $75 gun!

I have nothing to hide at my place, and I will call them on any request to search my premises. No worries about searches, but I'm not a sheep.

To each his own. I'm happy having one.

Justin

 

[hornadylnl]

I think I'll pass on the c&r liscense for right now. I'd feel more like a subject than a citizen if I have to register with the local leo's and subject my ammo supply to the scrutiny of the atf. I can just hear it now when the atf guy shows up. "Why so much ammo, (remember, 500 rounds is too much for these guys) are you going to start a war?"

As far as the CMP, if the feds are tapping meter maids to rat out American citizens, don't you think that they would require the CMP to track all ammo purchases because they are the supplier of ammo to the CMP? If I can cash and carry, I plan to go up there and get some. They have it cheaper than I can reload it for.

 

[Neo-Luddite]

The ammo thing may become an issue in the future. Watch and read carefully for ATF rules regarding ammo transfers between licensees. Be sure to know what is and IS NOT legally AP ammo or non-sporting ammo. Some transfers must be recorded. m2 AP for .06 and ss 109 5.56 is NOT AP according to ATF. There is lots of fine print.

As far as local CLEO goes--he doesn't have to like you -- unless you want him to sign off on an NFA transfer . You complied by letting him know and giving him a chance to comment to ATF. I'm sure though, more now than ever, he made a notation on the database just for future reference.

By getting that C/R are you inviting the ATF Vampire into your house--maybe.

I don't see a problem right now. Unless you are doing something stupid and un-lawful (ie. selling SKS rifles out your back door to joe gang banger) they have more important things to do. If in two years the climate has changed, send them your license back. I dealt with them only briefly and have no complaints. They were atraight with me.

 

[DF357]

RE: ammo

I just got my C&R and IMHO, think the ammo mentioned is any ammo that they have classified as a C&R ammo. There are many on the list. I don't think that modern ammo is a concern to them.

I put off getting mine for 3 years. Finally I decided that if the Feds want to see what I've got, they already know I've got stuff (4473) and they'll visit me whether I have the license or not. I also feel that the C&R might help me with my LTC renewal as now I am Federally recognized as one of the good guys.

IANAL

 

[Anna's Dad]

I suspect they toss 'em too, half the time. I called my local sheriff for a mailing address and they had absolutely no idea what I was talking about. I sent it and never heard another word.

 

[Neo-Luddite]

Also--just remembered--there used to be an officual C/R ammo list--- ATF did away with this except for info purposes.

Do what you need to--but the C/R is a great deal for 30 bucks. I don't think you can be too paranoid---but no one really cares how much ammo you have.

Except the media -- a brick of .22 would be enough for an arsenal.

 

[Jim K]

FWIW, I have never heard of a C&R license holder being audited by BATFE or having his book examined. I think that is unlikely to happen unless a gun you bought turned up in the hands of a criminal or terrorist.

Of course if you order fifty thousand guns and twenty million rounds of ammo to be shipped to the Symbionese Liberation Army at your address, someone just might dare to think you are not a legitimate collector.

Jim

 

[Doggieman]

Keep in mind the inspection doesn't have to happen at your place, you can elect to have it done at their offices. Which means they have to notify you of it in advance. The first section just means that if they have probable cause they can search your house, just like the local cops can. It does not change your privacy rights really at all.

And I have a feeling the local sheriff either throws the notice in the trash or files it away in a place reminiscent of the end scene of Raiders of the Lost Ark.

 

[CU74]

Forget the ammo

You don't use the C&R licese to buy ammunition - it's for buying Curio and Relic FIREARMS only. Ammo doesn't have to be entered into the Bound Book. Ammo doesn't have to be shown to a BATF***er if one ever shows up for an inspection.

Buy it cheap and stack it deep................

The local Chief LEO notification requirement is to give him/her a chance to inform BATFE if he/she has evidence that you aren't eligible for the C&R licence. Unless you have done something naughty to attract the local LEO's attention, it will be a non-issue for you.

 

[hornadylnl]

the premises, including places of storage, of any such licensee for the purpose of inspecting or examining:

1.) Any records or documents required to be kept by such licensee under this part and
2.) Any inventory of firearms or ammunition kept or stored by any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer at such premises or any firearms curios or relics or ammunition kept or stored by any licensed collector at such premises.

This came from a post above. I understand that the c&r should be for the purchase of guns only but why do their regs state that ammo is able to be searched? The only thing I can figure is that the ATF is looking for revolutionary types. I'm sure they think that the militia types love military rifles and will use a c&r to build up their arsenal. If not, then they have no reason to see ammo. How many atf agents would actually demand to see your ammo, I don't know but it is in the regs for a reason.

 

[rritter]

The reg about ammo may just be a holdover from when ammo sales were registered. The '86 FOPA stopped the ammo purchase registration, but the ammo inspection clause in this part of the law may have been overlooked. You don't have to enter ammo sales in the bound book, and you can choose to have the book audited (if the BATF ever asks for an audit) at their facility, so I doubt they'll ever know about your ammo stocks.

My C&R comes up for renewal later this year, and the only thing I've heard from the BATF since I got it are the occasional licensee newsletters they send out to all licensees. They can legally request an audit each year, but they haven't.