Curious about 9x18 stopping power.

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Hi, Pat. Both the Brown Bear & Silver Bear 115gr JHP are factory loads that do an honest 1,000fps. Don't take my word for it, check w/the guys who have actually chrono'd the loads: http://www.gunboards.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=110185
Besides, these are true 9.2mm bullets for the Mak, not 9mm bullets (9mm bullets would be undersized & create gas blow-by w/commensurate loss of accuracy & velocity).
My own admittedly informal testing w/water correlates to an appx 12"-14" penetration in gel according to the conversion formula by the guys at Ammo Lab. That's good enough for me but if forced to use a lighter bullet I would go w/FMJ.
Tomac
PS- How many years did the West German police use the .32ACP as their std sidearm? While a bit light for my taste I don't recall hearing/reading any complaints from them.
 
To 355 SigFan:

Quote of SigFan: "I know of no factory 115 grain mak load doing 1000 fps. Even if it did exist (sounds like a reloaders hand grenade to me) its not likley to expand and penetrate 12 inches. 115 grain 9mm bullets are designed to open at faster velocities usually. The Mak just does not have the horsepower. Its limited by its blow back action."

I agree that the 9x18 is not a powerful round, but with 115 gr Silver Bears it's around a .38 Spl standard pressure 3" snub. From a .38 Spl 2" snub the Makarov is very competitive or better.

That means the Mak is a little below medium power, but it's not weak. The 9mm Par is strong and anything above that is very strong.

With regard to what you said about Mak ammo: Silver Bear makes 115 gr JHP that is rated at 1010 fps from a Makarov pistol. CZ-83 9x18 is reputed to get about 1050 from this same ammo, probably due to its polygonal bore. That is not strong power, but neither is it weak. That is medium performance and beats a 2" .38 Spl snub standard pressure. It approx equals a 3" barrel .38 Spl standard pressure. Also, Silver Bears expand quite well. There are numerous independent reports on them.

However, those heavy Silver Bear ammo loads should not, in my opinion be fired in a Makarov or a CZ-83 unless an extra stiff recoil spring is added, which reduces felt recoil and is easier on the gun. However, my arthritic hands still cannot handle that ammo.

I can handle (barely) 95 gr JHP going 1030 fps from a Makarov pistol, or 1070 fps from a CZ-83. This is what Federal Eagle does. So with this ammo that is more comfy to shoot, the Mak pistol is a bit better than a .380, and the CZ-83 is much better than a .380, but less than a .38 std pressure snub.

I'm not saying the Makarov or CZ-83 in 9x18 are the best choice, but I am saying they are decent, in my opinion. I also consider the .38 Spl decent with a 3" barrel. A 9mm is strong. So I'm not disagreeing with you entirely. I'm just saying the 9x18 isn't as bad as you think. It is not good, but neither is it bad, in my opinion.
 
To McGunner:

Regarding your post #61 on the prior page of this thread:

I notice you made another insulting rant and sarcastically ripped into someone. For a change it wasn't me you were ripping on. How refreshing.

I've noticed many a thread where you were castrating someone. Often I'm the castrotee, but often it's others.

How many of your nearly 1500 posts are attacks?

Oh well. I'm not going to try to reason with you or point anything out to you about content or conduct. This group (as any other) is about social interaction as much as information. Apparently you don't understand that.

I get hotheaded myself sometimes, but you seem to always be hot. Let's think about that. Hmm. Hotheaded gun owner. Is that good for gun ownership?

I've been a little hotheaded myself from time to time, but I've learned to calm down and not rip on people. Hopefully you will get there someday.

From here on out, I'm going to ignore you. No matter what you say to anyone on any subject in any thread, I will not respond.

You can rip on me all day long if you like, or rip on others. Whatever. I'm past the point of discussion on this. It's a waste of bandwidth. I'm not angry. I'm calm. Disgusted, but calm. I'm abstaining from you after this post (in any thread).

Mellow out dude.
 
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QUOTE
That means the Mak is a little below medium power, but it's not weak. The 9mm Par is strong and anything above that is very strong.
END QUOTE

Actually standard pressure 38 rounds in a snub is considered weak by most people. The 9mm para is coinsidered a good powerfloor. Very strong does not apply to most handguns. The 9mm or 38 special with +p ammo is where most people set their lower power limit. Ie they will not carry anything with less power. The reason being when you get into mouse guns like the Mak your already dismal stopping power than handguns have gets even worse.
Pat
 
To SigFan:

Regarding your post about stopping power, etc:

I don't disagree with you. Nor do I agree. I'm not going to pick a horse in that race.

However, your standards are USA standards (and maybe Israeli), which may be correct. In the Middle East, I think the 9mm is the norm because ammo is easy to come by and they (all sides) take their killing seriously there. Also, they probably don't follow the Hague Treaty, so they probably use 9mm JHP, if they want.

The rest of the world has standards more in line with what I described. In fact, a substantial portion of the world population thinks the .380 is medium and OK, the 9x18 good, and the .38 Spl a powerhouse. Those countries think a 9mm is a cannon. Actually, this is so widespread that whole continents think this: South America, Europe, Asia, and Africa.

Hey that's 5 out of 7 continents. Antartica is uninhabited. So really, North American is the only continent that thinks as you do. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just making an observation. US Citizens tend to think they're always right and the rest of the world is wrong. I think the rest of the world might have some worthwhile knowledge too.

In any case, to my personal situation, it doesn't really matter to me one way or the other what is medium power. My arthritic hands can only handle whatever they can handle.

I would like to step up to a 9mm sometime, if I can. We'll see. However, I don't feel undergunned with a 9x18 with decent ammo. I also feel OK with a .380 ACP. This is especially true with the CZ-83, but also with a Firestorm or Bersa. Now a .32 ACP is underpowered, but it's still a very useful weapon and much better than none.
 
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Sigfan, could you please give me a scientific definition of "stopping power" and how it can be measured or quantified?
Tomac
 
This certainly is an interesting thread.

I had no idea what a hornets nest I was starting when I began this thread.

However, it is very interesting and sometimes informative. It's the thread that never dies. Like the Energizer Bunny, it just keeps going and going.

Good free entertainment and sometimes a learning experience too. Kind of like educational T.V. combined with a soap opera combined with a night at the fights.

This post is not an attack on anyone nor sarcasm. It's just a light hearted observation.

:)
 
Wbond, sometimes a good "less filling!"/"great taste!" debate can be quite entertaining. I guess you could say my bottom line is that no handgun, regardless of caliber or bullet used, can be depended upon to take down a determined & aggessive attacker quickly w/o a hit to the CNS. Even a solid hit to the heart can leave 10 seconds of oxygen in the brain, plenty of time for the BG to return the favor. While I agree that "bigger is better" I don't believe we can quantify just how much practical "better" is derived from the "bigger" so we end up with opinion and speculation sometimes presented as fact as to just how much "better" "bigger" really is. Pick the largest & most powerful caliber you feel confident with that you can shoot accurately & quickly and that has adequate penetration. IMHO you're better off with a smaller caliber you can shoot accurately than a larger caliber you can't shoot accurately. Here's an interesting FBI read: http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
Tomac
 
To Tomac:

I just read the FBI link info from your post.

The bad rap on the .380 has already been penetration from 10" to 11" with hollow points. i.e. - it falls short of 12". I'm not sure that I believe 10" not enough since most big men are only 12" thick.

However, if you believe 12" needed, consider this.

The 9x18 (95 to 115 gr) is anywhere from a little to a lot heavier than a .380 bullet (85 to 90 gr) and goes typically 30 fps faster from a Makarov or 70 fps faster from a CZ-83.

That gives a substantial advantage to the 9x18 when compared to .380.

Since the .380 gives almost, but not quite enough penetration, the bit more of the 9x18 ought to get it up to 12" or very close with hollow points that expand.

If so, that would make the 9x18 exactly enough power, but none extra.

That's if you buy into the whole 12" thing of the FBI, which I'm not sure if I do.

However, I do feel even better with the 9x18 after reading your post and the link to the FBI you gave.

To others who I'm sure will jump on this like an angry dog with a bone, let me just say :neener:

I think accuracy is the most important thing and I know I'll be more accurate with a gun I can practice a lot with. I can practice more when the gun kicks less because my hands have arthritis.

However, I wouldn't rule out the 9mm for recoil tolerance because of the type of action spreading recoil over a longer time period. Maybe I'll get a 9mm down the road. However, for now I'm quite happy with my .380 and 9x18 in both Firestorm and CZ-83. The Makarov might work out well, but I've got to get the rubber grips on it and bigger sights.
 
Quote
Sigfan, could you please give me a scientific definition of "stopping power" and how it can be measured or quantified?
Tomac
END QUOTE

Well that is a hornets nest and a huge trap of a question. I will say bigger deeper holes bleed faster than smaller shallower ones.
Pat
 
Wbond, glad you enjoyed the read, I found it very informative the first time I read it. Here's some 9x18 test info you might find of interest: http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/9x18/gel9x18.htm
I've found the 21# Mak recoil spring to be a big help w/the 115gr 9x18 in the recoil dept but still prefer to practice mostly w/95gr. I must admit I was very surprised at how accurate the Mak is for me even with the small factory sights. Aside from a dab of orange paint on the front sight & the heavier recoil spring my Mak is stock and does all I require of it.
Tomac
 
Sigfan, I completely agree with you, hence my earlier post about "adequate penetration". My point of contention is exactly how much "better" do we get with "bigger"? IMHO there are too many variables for us to really know (is load "A" 5% better than load "B"? 10%? 35%? Is enough *practical* benefit derived to be worth the possible extra recoil/cost/size?) I guess it's like buying insurance, each person has to decide how much is "enough" and hope we never have to use it.
Tomac
 
I feel a good powerfloor is the 9mm and 38 special with +p ammo. Any load that can penetrate 12 inches and expand to at least .60 caliber is good enough for me. I prefer more expansion if possible so long as it goes 12 inches.
Pat
 
To Tomac:

You Mak sounds dandy, except I'd want rubber grips by Pierce to help tame recoil and the big Novak sights. That stuff is really quite cheap at Makarov.com

You know what else is cheap at Makarov.com?

Brand spanking new 9x18 CZ-83s in matte black ($319), gloss blue (more of a satin really) ($350), and nickel ($350). They're also made better than before. They were good before, but are even better now.

For example, the barrels used to be polygonal and chromed inside. Now they are polygonal and stainless steel, which sounds even better. This according to Makarov.com.

The glossy blue one I currently own has the chromed polygonal bore.

These puppies make great siblings for Makarovs. Your Mak is probably lonely. FYI - a CZ-83 9x18 will get about 40 fps more velocity from same ammo than a Makarov will. However, don't shoot the 115 gr Silver or Brown Bear ammo in a CZ-83 before upgrading recoil spring.

Makarov.com will have those CZ-83 upgrade recoil springs soon, but not yet.
 
To SigFan:

One thing I don't think you've understood is that we are commy gun fans, which includes both Makarovs and CZ-82s and CZ-83s, as well as the Polish P-83, which is like a Makarov, but better due to coil trigger spring and really nice trigger pull. There are other commy guns, but none so nice in fit or function.

I'm not just interested in guns for self defense, it's also a hobby and I'm a commy gun collector, and a mousegun collector.

I'd define a mousegun as anything below a .38 Spl.

i.e. - I own three .32 ACPs, one .380, and several 9x18s.

All in commy guns, plus one Firestorm that I really love and although it's not commy gun, it is a remake of the .32 mousegun Walther, which was a military and police gun. I'd like to also get a Firestorm .380.

I also own a Ruger .32 Magnum, which I'd guess is about equal to a .380, but with a tad more penetration. So maybe a little better than a .380. Maybe not.
 
If your com block gun fans and collect them for fun thats fine. But for serious self defense I would recommend something with a bit more bite. Com block stuff does have its appeal. I have owned my share of AK's. So I understand their draw. Cheap, yet reliable. They have a neatness factor in that their highly affordable yet totally reliable.
Pat
 
To SigFan:

Quoting SigFan: "I prefer more expansion if possible so long as it goes 12 inches."

===========================

Well of course. Who wouldn't? The problem is that this results in more recoil. If you can handle it, that's dandy. Unfortuneatly, I can't. That's were it gets interesting.

I cannot have both optimum penetration and diameter. Therefore, I have to make the best compromise I can.

I think the 9x18 is marginal for acceptable power by my standards and according to my capabilities. I can marginally handle the recoil.

I can more easily handle .380 recoil, but it's got no safety margin at all for stopping power (by my standards). In fact, it may be inadequate by my standards. (I know your standards, but they don't apply to me since I have handicaps you don't)

I can practice more with a .380 because it's easier on my hands. This might mean I can become more accurate with a .380 due to more practice.

There's also the issue that I don't want to further damage my hands which already have arthritis and have been put pack together by 4 screws.
 
QUOTE
Well of course. Who wouldn't? The problem is that this results in more recoil. If you can handle it, that's dandy. Unfortuneatly, I can't. That's were it gets interesting.
END QUOTE

True but the 9mm mak sinces its a blow back actually recoils more than most locked breach 9mm's of simular size. So with the mak your getting less power and more recoil hardly a good combination. The smallest female officers (one I trained who is 4 foot 9 ) can handle the very mild recoil of a 9mm with +P+ ammo in a Glock 17. If you feel the mak recoils less its in your head not a reality. Not a insult just an observation.
Pat
 
To SigFan:

Quote of SigFan: "True but the 9mm mak sinces its a blow back actually recoils more than most locked breach 9mm's of simular size."

=====================================

You apparently missed this in one of my earlier posts (an earlier reply to Tomac, see reply #84, last paragraph).

I said that I hope to someday step up to a 9mm and that this might be possible since the action theoretically spreads the recoil over a longer time, which theoretically results in less felt recoil.

I'm aware of this theoretical benefit of locked breech guns.

I say theoretical because I haven't tried a 9mm to know.

I do know that gas operated shotguns are really easy to shoot while pump guns kick hard. So based on this, I know it's possible that a 9mm might be nice. However, are they gas operated? I don't think most are, but I'm not sure. Maybe that doesn't matter.

If you say they offer less felt recoil, then I believe you. However, there are differences in their actions from model to model, brand to brand. So I'm not sure which would really reduce felt recoil, or if they all would.

The other thing I need is a low bore axis to keep muzzle flip to a minium. My wrist is fused and can't roll with the punches at all. i.e. - can't bend with muzzle flip.

I am aware that the blowbacks normally give more recoil, but they offer one advantage, which is a lower bore axis. They also can have stiffer recoil springs put in them, which is what Tomac and I were talking about earlier. With a recoil spring about 4 lbs stiffer than stock, the recoil is said to be greatly reduced in blow back guns. I just ordered such a recoil spring, but it's not arrived yet. I'm also working on getting rubber grips.

If you want to help, please provide me a list of 9mm pistols that have a low bore axis and weigh between 23 and 26 ounces (I'd probably consider 28 oz too) and that you think would offer reduced felt recoil. Also, I really like a cushy rubber grip that covers the sides and back of the grip.

What 9mm pistols sound like this?

I'm kind of fond of Kahr (all stainless) and Firestorm 9mms. Note the Firestorm and Bersa are very similar and both made by Bersa. However, Firestorm is sold by Firestorm. I'm also open to other suggestions.
 
If you want to help, please provide me a list of 9mm pistols that have a low bore axis and weigh between 23 and 26 ounces (I'd probably consider 28 oz too) and that you think would offer reduced felt recoil. Also, I really like a cushy rubber grip that covers the sides and back of the grip.
END QUOTE

A HK P7 M8 would be a good pistol for you. Its a gas operated delayed blowback with a very low bore axis. If you really want a soft kicker you should consider ditching the weight limit and getting a 1911 in 9mm. They have very minimal muzzle jump and recoil. Due to their low bore axis and their 40 ounches of steel.
A Glock 19 would not be a bad choice either. 9mm's are soft kickers. Most 9mm pistols are locked breach not gas guns. There are very few gas operated pistols made.
Pat
 
Sigfan, lest I be misconstrued I've never claimed the 9x18 is a superior round for self defense, merely "adequate". I believe any bullet that penetrates deeply enough to reach the vitals to be "adequate" but that no current bullet/caliber is "superior" as that decided superiority cannot be proved scientifically (better, yes, we can all agree that bigger is better but "superior"?). Why do I carry the Mak? Because it works for me: it's reliable, accurate and (IMHO) powerful enough (being relatively inexpensive is just a bonus). Many other pistols I've tried over the decades haven't been. If you believe the 9x18 is underpowered for self defense then you have the right to that opinion. However, if you state your opinion as fact then I'd like to see hard evidence supporting that fact.
Wbond, if you have a local rental range it might not be a bad idea to try out various pistols/calibers to find what you're comfortable and confident with. Regarding the CZ-83, thanks for the heads-up! I've been eyeing them for some time while trying to hold my wallet closed!
Tomac
 
9x18 ammo

Good 9x18 ball ammo is plentiful. My preferred brand of ball is Federal Eagle 95 gr because it's about medium power and burns clean. There are probably many other good brands of ball (Bellier and Sellot, Fiochi, etc).

Good JHP 9x18 is scarce at this time. Barnaul JHP non-existent at this time.

The Hornady 95 gr 9x18 JHP seems like good stuff, but a bit underpowered (even for 9x18). That might be nice for lower recoil though.

The Silver Bear JHP is decently powerful for self defense, in my opinion. However, it's hard on guns and hands. If you must use this, then you need a stronger recoil spring than the stock spring. About 4 lbs stronger than stock spring is ideal.

So the bad news is for 9x18 JHP you currently have to choose from weak or dangerously strong, which might not be safe for the gun (unless modifed spring).

The good news is that Makarov.com told me many new 9x18 brands and loads are just around the corner. In a couple months there should be many good 9x18 JHP choices. I prefer medium power 9x18 JHP loads. Those and others will be forthcoming soon. Hang in there.

Also, the CZ-83 gives about 40 fps more velocity with same ammo than a Makarov. So one way to hop up your 9x18 ammo is to use a CZ-83 instead of a Makarov. CZ-83s have polygonal barrels are great guns.
 
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