Curious About The Law

[USMC 1975]

I posted this thread here but it must have been lost or something because it never showed up. So I will try this again.

I am curious to know what most State laws say about pulling your carry gun and pointing it at another in regards to a situation where you feel your life is threatened.

In Florida the use of a firearm is lawful during the course of a forceable felony or if your life or that of another is in imminent danger.

Since endangerment is such a subjective subject, I am wondering what the laws say as to when you can pull your gun to reduce a threat. One persons idea of a threat can be completely different from another.

If someone walks up to you unarmed and empty handed and threatens to kick the moose crap out of you, is this a situation where you can pull your weapon and diffuse the situation ?

Are there prescribed laws relating to when you can pull a gun in a show of force to diffuse a situation ?

Thanks,

Chris

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Ape beating chest becomes raging gorilla. Once the mud and grass throwing starts and the thing charges to make banana of you, draw.

But until then treat ape like 2 year old who cannot get to the cookie jar and gorilla as a spoiled brat who has not had his way yet.

But when they scream, go ballistic and charge... draw.

 

[green country shooter]

The hard thing about this is that there almost never laws that are written down and clear about it. There are court cases, most of which are not reported. Individual district attorneys may make their own decisions. There are general rules and such, but those are often made by judges and unreliable to protect you, such as disparity of force etc. I will check the oklahoma laws and report back.

 

[Mascoma]

In TN it is written:

39-17-1322. Defenses. —

A person shall not be charged with or convicted of a violation under this part if the person possessed, displayed or employed a handgun in justifiable self-defense or in justifiable defense of another during the commission of a crime in which that person or the other person defended was a victim.

So the way I read that is. If some big Ape wants to kick my Ass and I know he can, well he will have to go through my P89 first... on the other hand if I feel it may be a equal fight I'm all for throwing knuckles too. But I will not go into a fight knowing full well my ass is kicked, seems like a no brainer to me.

 

[USMC 1975]

Thanks Green Country.

I am not worried about the laws in regards to shooting someone. I know when I can legally shoot an individual.

But my concern is having problems with LEO's in the event I have to unholster my weapon to diffuse a situation. If one considers what LEO"s do with combative subjects ( taser or mace ) I am just wondering what would happen if the person you called 911 about who threatened you told the police " I just approached him to ask for directions and the ninja pulled his gun on me ".

Where would that leave you in regards to the law ? You may have thought you were in danger and the guy may have made a threat, but where does the law come in when the individual is unarmed ? And what if he tells the LEO's a different story and after a pat down the guy has no weapon ?

I read in the thread ( Who has had to use or unholster your weapon ) where numerous people pulled their guns out and were ready to use them because they perceived a threat to their life. Many of the perp's were unarmed in these cases. Some never made a threat.

I am not second guessing anyone here so please do not get me wrong. I am just curious to know where our limits stand in regards to these type incidents, especially if someone that we pull the gun on pushes the issue with LEO's.

I for one am not real crazy about going to jail because I pulled my weapon during a situation that I felt was a threat but the LEO's felt otherwise.

Chris

 

[kirkcdl]

Opportunity
Ability
Intent

I think there is a 4th,but I can't remember it right now...Old Age...

If the aggressor has the Ability,the Opportunity,and the Intent to kill or do grave bodily harm to you or another person,in Oregon you would be justified in the use of Deadly Force...

No requirement to retreat,but it'll probably go better if you at least tried to avoid the situation...

 

[hso]

Legal questions should go in the Legal forum so I'll move it there.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

If I see this ape threatening someone and several draw weapons, I aint drawing mine. Im getting out of there with the wife.

Then again, we dont go out much anymore. People get shot in the nighttime these days.

 

[Keb]

Of course, you may be alone up against a group. They of course will all get their story together with the help of an Acorn Lawyer.

 

[Dan Crocker]

I would think you could make a good argument like this: "The man was belligerent and acted very aggressive. I was afraid for my life; specifically that he would take my firearm away and use it against me if I did not stop him. Which is why I pulled my gun and held him at gunpoint until the police arrived."
Then again, who hasn't seen logic fail at cout...

 

[deadin]

displayed or employed a handgun in justifiable self-defense or in justifiable defense of another during the commission of a crime in which that person or the other person defended was a victim.

I think the "zinger" here is the word "justifiable". Your definition and the DA's definition may be quite different.

 

[Jeff White]

But my concern is having problems with LEO's in the event I have to unholster my weapon to diffuse a situation.

Depends entirely on the situation.

I am just wondering what would happen if the person you called 911 about who threatened you told the police " I just approached him to ask for directions and the ninja pulled his gun on me ".

Depends entirely on which one of you is more credible and what the witnesses (if any) say about it.

The best plan is to only draw your weapon when the circumstances justify using it. You have the right to use it to defend yourself. You have no right to use it to enforce compliance, i.e. end an argument.

If the person stops the attack then, so much the better. If not shoot. Then you don't have to worry about if you were justified in using your weapon.

 

[divemedic]

This is a complicated question that requires a little bit of a lengthy explaination.

If you draw a weapon and point it at someone, the most likely charge will be:

790.10 Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.--If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

of course, aggravated assault will probably be thrown in as well.

784.021 Aggravated assault.--

(1) An "aggravated assault" is an assault:

(a) With a deadly weapon without intent to kill; or

(b) With an intent to commit a felony.

(2) Whoever commits an aggravated assault shall be guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

From a legal standpoint, merely pointing a weapon (even a firearm) at someone constitutes the use of non-deadly force. It does not become deadly force until the weapon is fired. (The court case is Riviero v. State, 871 So2nd 953 (Fla. 3DCA 2004))

The trick here is what is "in necessary self-defense?" That is what you will use in your defense:

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.--A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other's imminent use of unlawful force.

So the drawing of a weapon to diffuse a situation is acceptable, but remember that unless the situation escalates, you cannot discharge the weapon.

and this law as well:

776.031 Use of force in defense of others.--A person is justified in the use of force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on, or other tortious or criminal interference with, either real property other than a dwelling or personal property, lawfully in his or her possession or in the possession of another who is a member of his or her immediate family or household or of a person whose property he or she has a legal duty to protect. However, the person is justified in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person does not have a duty to retreat if the person is in a place where he or she has a right to be.

This is where things get sticky. Note that you can use non-deadly force to defend property. Therefore, you can legally point a firearm at someone for the purpose of protecting property, trespassing, and non-violent felonies that fall short of being a forcible felony.

With that being said, I would not go around pointing my weapon at people without good cause, but on the other hand, I will not hesitate to produce a weapon when I feel threatened. I do suggest getting a good lawyer.

For an excellent discussion of this and other Florida firearms issues, buy this book. (Note: I am not in any way affiliated with the author or publisher of this book)

 

[Frank Ettin]

divemedic, you are citing statute and case law from one particular state. It's not necessarily the same everywhere.

 

[green country shooter]

ok 21 643
To use or to attempt to offer to use force or violence upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:


3. When committed either by the person about to be injured, or by any other person in such person's aid or defense, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against such person, or any trespass or other unlawful interference with real or personal property in such person's lawful possession; provided the force or violence used is not more than sufficient to prevent such offense;

 

[divemedic]

Except the OP specifically was referring to Florida. He said (in the original post):

In Florida the use of a firearm is lawful during the course of a forceable felony or if your life or that of another is in imminent danger.

 

[USMC 1975]

Divemedic. Thank you for posting that site. It had some great information. I am going to order the book. Thanks again.

I posted this thread because I was curious at what point does one need to worry when ulhostering a gun. I am sure most of the laws are similar in many States, but I was especially curious since I live in Florida.

Lets take a hypotehtical example here. A guy is in a rage over you cutting him off in traffic and catches you at the gas pumps. He gets out and comes over and tells you he is going to whip your ass. He has no weapons in his hands and plans on doing it fist to cuffs.

Can you legally pull your weapon out or are left to defend yourself wih your own bare hands ?

I was always under the assumption that unless someone had a weapon
( gun, knife, baseball bat, club, etc. ) and threatened you with words only, you could not pull your weapon.

Chris

 

[Water Garden]

Ability
opportunity
Jeopardy

 

[tunnug]

If someone walks up to you unarmed and empty handed and threatens to kick the moose crap out of you, is this a situation where you can pull your weapon and diffuse the situation ? (quote)

Only if he's 300lb man and you're 120lb woman.

In AZ you can't even put your hand on your gun unless you fear for your life, if you do just because he's bigger and he sees your gun he can stop, call the cops and have you arrested for brandishing even if you did'nt unholster.

 

[USMC 1975]

" In AZ you can't even put your hand on your gun unless you fear for your life, if you do just because he's bigger and he sees your gun he can stop, call the cops and have you arrested for brandishing even if you did'nt unholster. "

This is what I was looking for when I started this thread. After reading the other thread about " who has used their weapon " it appeared that several have pulled their weapons on unarmed suspects. I was curious to know that in some of these cases where the perpetrator is unarmed, do we even have that right ?

I am not trying to judge anyone on the use of their own weapon. But my fear lies in getting hauled off to jail and losing my CCW because I did " brandish " my weapon for what I perceived as a threat.

Thank you for your input.

Chris

 

[Hungry Seagull]

In the old days I used to water down the loudmouth with a squit of desiel fuel and have the fuel desk [sic] security on the now blinded and soaked man. A squit out of those high pressure pumps are more like 10 gallons or more.

But in a gas station where we are? Especially after a traffic situation? I aint stopping. The only place I stop is the LEO's house and they can deal with him there. I dont have to do anything but drive there with loudmouth following.

But in my time there was usually a small tire thumper that was my go to at the fuel line for trouble. Much good it will do. I still have that thumper somewhere. A wee knock and it's lights out bud.

 

[divemedic]

I posted this thread because I was curious at what point does one need to worry when ulhostering a gun. I am sure most of the laws are similar in many States, but I was especially curious since I live in Florida.

Lets take a hypotehtical example here. A guy is in a rage over you cutting him off in traffic and catches you at the gas pumps. He gets out and comes over and tells you he is going to whip your ass. He has no weapons in his hands and plans on doing it fist to cuffs.

Can you legally pull your weapon out or are left to defend yourself wih your own bare hands ?

I was always under the assumption that unless someone had a weapon
( gun, knife, baseball bat, club, etc. ) and threatened you with words only, you could not pull your weapon.

My answer stands:

In Florida, the drawing of a weapon is NOT considered lethal force. In the example you give, the man who followed you is committing a violent act, and is presenting you with an imminent threat of non-deadly force. In Florida, it is legal to meet non-deadly force with non-deadly force.

Interestingly enough, Mr Gutmacher suggests that exposing your weapon, or even drawing it and pointing it anywhere EXCEPT the attacker is NOT force at all, as there is no threat, merely a notification that you are armed.

Remember that any time you use a firearm in self defense, even if you did not fire it, odds are high that you will be arrested. For that reason, I recommend that the wiser course is to avoid such situations if possible.

 

[woof]

I have a simple formula - if your level of fear is low enough that you are thinking about laws and consequences, then your level of fear isn't high enough to shoot or even draw.