Custer's Gun

[William H. Gerdts]

I am writing an entry for a catalogue of American still-life painting. One of the paintings, created in 1917, is by a painter of deceptive realism, Otis Kaye, and it is entitled "Custer's Gun"; along with it is a photograph of General Custer.

I would like to know if the gun could have been one of General Custer's guns and, in any case, the type of gun it is.

Any assistance would be most appreciated.

Thank you ahead.

William H. Gerdts
Professor Emeritus of Art History
Graduate School of the City University of New York

[email protected]

212 8601181

 

[Ranger Roberts]

The gun in the picture looks like a Remington New Model Army single action revolver. It is certainly of the correct era to be one of Custer's guns. I have always heard that Custer was given a Webley Bull Dog revolver as a gift and after his death the gun was never recovered. It was believed that he was carrying the Webley during his "last stand."

 

[ivankerley]

im no expert, the frame of the gun looks like a Colt Open top (maybe1851, flat water table, though the hammer spur is all wrong), the barrel assembly looks like a Remington 1858 New Model Army, especially the loading lever under the barrel.
So id say that its a fantasy revolver.
As far as what custer carried, probably guarantee it wasnt whats pictured here
Best of Luck
Gene

 

[ivankerley]

The gun in the picture looks like a Remington New Model Army single action revolver. It is certainly of the correct era to be one of Custer's guns. I have always heard that Custer was given a Webley Bull Dog revolver as a gift and after his death the gun was never recovered. It was believed that he was carrying the Webley during his "last stand."

look again theres no top strap, grips not remmie. its got some remmie ques but some colt too
Gene

 

[Jim Watson]

The painting is an artist's conception, apparently working without a real period revolver to go by. The "gun" incorporates features of several different makes and models.

The octagonal barrel is like an 1851 Colt Navy but the loading lever is shaped like a Remington 1858 part.
The semi-circular blade front sight differs from the Navy's simple peg.
The cylinder has 12 bolt notches which was used by the Confederate Augusta Machine Works. I think there may have been an obscure Colt variation like that but if so, it is vanishingly rare.
The contour of the rear of the cylinder is more squared off than a real Colt.
The hammer spur is more vertical than on a real gun of the type.
The grip is closer to the long swoopy 1860 type than the 1851/1873 plowhandle.
Some percussion Colts had either a brass backstrap OR a brass trigger guard, few had both parts of brass. A lot of Italian reproductions do, though.

Since the painting does not depict an actual revolver (of any make or model I know) it could not have been "Custer's gun."

There is a tradition that Custer was armed with a Webley at "Greasy Grass" but that is not proven.
http://www.gunsandammo.com/blogs/history-books/what-was-custers-last-gun/undefined

He had a sizeable personal collection and might have been seen with any of a number of sidearms at any given time.
For example, his most usual rifle was a Remington Rolling Block rather than the issue Springfield Trapdoor.

 

[Smokin'Joe]

The gun pictured looks like a combination of a Colt 1851 in .36 caliber with a Remington rammer. As such it seems to be a fantasy weapon. Since it is also a percussion revolver it is certainly not a weapon used at Little Big Horn.

 

[ivankerley]

NOT MY PHOTOS used to illustrate what the artist may have used for reference
COLT 1851 Navy


Colt 1860 Army



Remington 1858 NMA

 

[Zaydok Allen]

He had a sizeable personal collection and might have been seen with any of a number of sidearms at any given time.

Yes he did. Trying to pinpoint all of them would be a real task, and likely impossible. I've heard that he carried a Galland revolver from time to time, and I've seen pictures of him carrying what looks like a Remington Smoot in an early photo of him. It may be a S&W though. I didn't look that closely.

He was a gun guy for sure.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Looks like a warped '51 Navy to me.

I have driven by Custer's house and it is pretty cool!

 

[el indio]

I read somewhere that he carried Navy Colts in 36 caliber.

 

[Tommygunn]

Custer carried several revolvers, notably a 1861 Navy. It was not uncommon at the time for major companies to make special presentation guns for famous people and Custer received atleast one such revolver -- probably more.

I have always heard that Custer was given a Webley Bull Dog revolver as a gift and after his death the gun was never recovered. It was believed that he was carrying the Webley during his "last stand."

/\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\
Yes, this is what the majority of historians who have opined on the subject have said -- I won't dispute this.
Of course earlier in his career, during the Civil War, C&B guns were the norm and he'd carry one of them. In fact we know this; one extant story of him at the head of his cavalry leading his first Civil War "charge" has him alternatly exchanging his revolver for saber, then returning to the revolver. He had an affection for the sabre ... sort of a romantic historical association, but, he realized that it was fast becoming an obsolete weapon and the revolver was more modern and practical. The thing is it was normal custom for the cavalrymen to choose the same weapon as their leader, so we have the mental image of every cavalryman switching back and forth between the two weapons as they closed on the Confederate enemy.
They won, so I suspect Custer finally did decide ....
I suspect he had a Colt 1851 at that time. I suspect he carried the 1861 later in his Indian Wars campaigns and switched to cartridge arms as they became available in the early 1870s.

 

[Iggy]

He reputedly favored a (Adams?)British Bulldog. Also supposedly carried a Reminton Rolling Block in .44 caliber.

Story goes that Custer and his troops stopped on a hill over looking the village. Custer had one company fire a volley to get the Indians attention and draw them off of Reno. They found a bunch of 45-70 cases and one 44 Remington case on that hill top.

Custer and troops moved on and the rest is history.

BTW, It worked, those Indians turned around and came across the river and wiped his detachment out.

 

[twofifty]

The battlefield site is certainly worth planning a min. 2-3 hour stop on any journey through the area.
Walking the area, which is lightly folded open terrain, quickly explains why the last stand took place where it did.

 

[StrawHat]

A pair of Colt 1861s has provenance to Custer, beautifully engraved. Also, a Remington Rolling Block was built for him chambered in 50-70. The 1861s are still around but the Rolling Block has gone missing.

Like many others of his time, he carried what he preferred, not necessarily what he was issued.

 

[Jim K]

Custer first came to a degree of fame during the Civil War when his Michigan cavalry brigade interfered with Stuart's attempt to attack the rear of the Union line at Cemetery Ridge. That was in July of 1863, and he was a brevet (temporary) Brigadier General. At the end of the war he was reduced in rank to his permanent grade of Lieutenant Colonel, the rank he held when he was killed in 1876.

The distance in time from 1863 to 1876, 13 years, was a huge chasm in terms of firearms design and manufacturing, mainly in the use of self-contained metallic cartridges. The revolver (I agree it is an artist's "fantasy gun", showing a generic type rather than a depiction of any specific make or model) is a percussion type, loaded from the front of the cylinder but with separate percussion types place on nipples at the rear. Such a gun would have been of the general type Custer might have used in 1863. But by 1876, the revolvers issued to the cavalry, and any personal guns Custer might have carried, would have used fixed cartridges and so would look quite a bit different.

In brief, the revolver pictured is an artist's concept with no valid connection to either a real revolver or to George A. Custer.

Jim

 

[Beagle-zebub]

LOL, this thread reminds me so much of that one paragraph in "All The Pretty Horses":

On the wall opposite above the sideboard was an oil painting of horses. There were half a dozen of them breaking through a pole corral and their manes were long and blowing and their eyes wild. They’d been copied out of a book. They had the long Andalusian nose and the bones of their faces showed Barb blood. You could see the hindquarters of the foremost few, good hindquarters and heavy enough to make a cutting horse. As if maybe they had Steeldust in their blood. But nothing else matched and no such horse ever was that he had seen and he’d once asked his grandfather what kind of horses they were and his grandfather looked up from his plate at the painting as if he’d never seen it before and he said those are picture book horses and went on eating.

 

[bikerdoc]

One of the paintings, created in 1917, is by a painter of deceptive realism, Otis Kaye,

Deceptive realism it is. It is art, but not history.

 

[kBob]

The painting is of the rare Art-o-matic. Seriously it is a mix of visuals of a number of revolversmas folks have noted and those extra bolt notches were a patteneded feature of the Manhatten revolvers of 1860 to 1866.

Custer's letters to Remington indicate his rifle and those of his family in the HQ troop were .50 cal in the campaign before his last. He praised them such that I would wonder why he would have changed to a .44.

There was a .50 in a little museum in St. Augustine Florida that had a few Indian tacks and some leather shrunken on the wrist and fore arm. There was a Large Seventh Cav hat badge of bullion Cloth on the right side of the butt stock. The owner of the museum chose not to have the gun researched as she said she was sure it was a fake, it had to be! To the best of my knowledge she never did remove the shrunk on leather to examine a serial number.

To suggest anyone has a Custer revolver used at Greasy Grass reminds me of a hazing question at The Citadel. Upperclassmen would point at a torpedo on display in front of the science building and bark "What great ship was sunk by that torpedo?" so some freshman could make a fool of himself guessing.

Speaking of The Citadel....any of you Union boys know how Custer's men faired against The Citadel Company in their mix up 200 former Cadets and friend verses 800 Michiganders. If you need your memory refreshed the Former Cadets went through the Michiganders like crap through a goose and took Custer's personal baggage on their way through.....including his "maid".

He did not win them all even before Greasy Grass.

-kBob

 

[Dr.Rob]

Custer had some kind of Webley or Adams double action revolver instead of a Colt SAA, maybe two of them by some accounts.

Guns and Ammo referenced it in an article I read years back.. available here.. http://www.gunsandammo.com/blogs/history-books/what-was-custers-last-gun/

 

[MartinS]

"...is by a painter of deceptive realism..."

 

[Kernel]

Custer would of used a cap-n-ball revolver similar to this during the Civil War, but by Little Big Horn he would of had a cartridge revolver.

 

[beag_nut]

I know he thanked all you guys in advance, but it sure would be nice if the OP would acknowledge all your inputs.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I don't think anyone has hurt feelings.

Note that was his 1 and only post. THR monitoring is likely not a big part of his life.

 

[Jim K]

I just hope that what Prof. Gerdts writes reflects the consensus that the pictured gun is an artist's work, not a painting of an actual gun, and certainly not even the type of gun that Custer would have had at the LBH.

Jim

 

[alexander45]

Looks like a bad painting of a 51 navy