Gun owners up in arms over Pa. bill

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Desertdog

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Gun owners up in arms over Pa. bill
By Robin Acton
TRIBUNE-REVIEW
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/mostread/s_502099.html



Doug Balliet describes himself as an outdoorsman, a lifelong hunter and fisherman who happens to own "a pile of guns."
Balliet, 42, of Winfield Township, Butler County, insists he's not a "gun freak -- just a good, old-fashioned, red-blooded American" who is tired of intrusions upon his personal freedoms. So, when he read the text of a bill introduced in Pennsylvania's House of Representatives last month, the timber worker "about flipped."

"I can't believe they're trying to do this in Pennsylvania," Balliet said. "I cannot lose any more of my given rights in this country."

House Bill 760 has outraged gun owners across the state because it would require annual registration of every weapon they possess other than antiques -- guns manufactured before 1898 -- certain collector's items, and law-enforcement duty weapons.





Balliet doubts the bill will become law because it is too politically divisive. Legal experts say it is too soon to tell.

"It sounds like one of the more extreme pieces of gun control legislation," said Arthur Hellman, a professor at the University of Pittsburgh School of Law.

The proposal, under consideration by the House Judiciary Committee, would require gun owners to pay a registration fee of $10 per weapon per year, undergo a state police criminal background check and submit detailed personal information for a registry that would include fingerprints, Social Security numbers, birth dates and passport-sized photographs.

Applicants who are denied registration would be required to surrender their weapons to the state police. Anyone who violates the law would be charged with a summary offense.

Because no permit is needed to own a gun, it is difficult to say how many Pennsylvanians own one. As of November, more than 589,000 permits to carry concealed weapons had been issued to state residents, the Pennsylvania Sheriffs Association said.

The District of Columbia and several states, including California, Hawaii, New York and Michigan, require some form of registration for handguns, long guns or both, according to information compiled by the National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action. A few states have imposed guidelines for gun owners in specific areas.


Critics of Pennsylvania's proposal are vocal in their opposition, with some resorting to name calling and character attacks against the bill's sponsors.

"People from Philadelphia and Pittsburgh support it, but people from the rural western part of the state say I'm a Nazi and that I should go back to my country," said state Rep. Angel Cruz, who represents Philadelphia County's 180th District.

Cruz said he proposed the measure as a means to install a tracking system to determine where criminals responsible for gun violence are obtaining their weapons.

"I'm not in favor of taking away people's right to bear arms," he insisted. "They would just have to register them -- like they register a vehicle every year. I want to make it safe for all people across the state."

The National Rifle Association immediately took a firm stance against the bill and urged its 3 million members to contact lawmakers and oppose it. The organization contends that a registry would do nothing to curb gun-related crimes.

"The NRA is fundamentally opposed to any sort of firearms registry for law-abiding citizens," spokeswoman Ashley Varner said, adding that lawmakers should focus on "dealing with the criminal element" rather than placing the burden on law-abiding gun owners.

In only a month, the issue has become so polarizing that two of the bill's original sponsors, both Allegheny County Democrats, have withdrawn their support: state Reps. Jake Wheatley and Lisa Bennington, whose districts include parts of the city of Pittsburgh, removed their names from the bill in recent weeks.

Bennington's legislative assistant, Jann Chirdon, said Bennington withdrew her support because the text of the bill changed considerably from the time it was initially proposed to the day it was introduced to lawmakers.

Wheatley believes the bill "goes a little too far."

"I have some concerns because this is more punitive than it needs to be," Wheatley said. "There are too many senseless deaths. We all struggle with gun violence in the city streets and in rural areas, and there is a black market in which someone legally buys a gun and then gives it to a criminal, but this is a little too punitive to the law-abiding citizens."

Authorities in Philadelphia on Monday announced arrest warrants for 14 city residents accused of illegally buying guns for felons, transactions known as "straw purchases." Attorney General Tom Corbett and Philadelphia District Attorney Lynne Abraham said the warrants were issued through the efforts of a gun violence task force formed in December.

Authorities say it is difficult to track illegal weapons transactions.

"It's unclear as to how many might be straw purchases until they come up in the criminals' hands," said Philadelphia police Sgt. D.F. Pace. "But it is a very serious issue in Pennsylvania with the kind of gun violence we have."

Pace cited a recent case in which an individual purchased 13 weapons, including some used later in kidnapping, robbery and murder cases. When that happens, the straw purchaser is charged in connection with the crimes, Pace said.

Pittsburgh police Sgt. Mike Tracy said the registry would help authorities track straw purchases by providing investigative leads.

"We're not after the law-abiding gun owners. We're after the illegal owner who has gotten a gun by illegal means," Tracy said.

In addition to Cruz, the bill's remaining sponsors are state Reps. Rosita Youngblood and Cherelle L. Parker, both of Philadelphia, and state Rep. Lawrence H. Curry, who represents parts of Philadelphia and Montgomery counties.

The state police have no official position on the bill, spokesman Jack Lewis said. He said the department is analyzing the potential operational and fiscal impact of the bill on state police.

"As you would expect, the department follows closely any proposed new laws that would increase the workload of the department without providing additional personnel or funding," Lewis said.

Youngblood, whose 198th District encompasses several Philadelphia city neighborhoods, introduced related legislation, House Bill 291, which would require increased safety performance and manufacturing standards for handguns.

Her proposal would require personalization of handguns so they could be fired only by authorized users and incorporation of personalized handgun technology into handgun designs that could not be readily deactivated. It would require state police to formulate testing procedures to determine whether handguns comply with safety standards.

"People in Philadelphia are looking for ways to protect our citizens," Youngblood said.



Robin Acton can be reached at [email protected] or 724-830-6295.
 
There is no link to the text of the bill. If it is what the article says it is, this is an outrage for Pennsylvania gun owners.

Is there a snowball's chance in Hades that this abomination might go somewhere?

I live in Minnesota. What can I do?
 
People here are talking about this bill. I cannot believe that it will pass...and also believe that IF it passes, it will be universally ignored and cause for a real crisis.

I know State Troopers here. They are NOT in favor of this bill. They do NOT want to try to serve any warrants brought about by this bill. There are MANY Pennsylvanians who will fight rather than subject themselves to this UnConstitutional (both US and PA) bill.

We (speaking for the gun owners I know) are not worried about this bill because it isn't going to be legal....even if it is passed by the current Legislature. We will ignore it.

Come and get them!
 
it's in direct violation of PA state law. state law forbids the establishment of any registry or database. course the state supreme court got around that once by just declaring that a database isn't a dataabase.
pat
 
All the State Reps who represent any of my co-workers are against this bill. Has anybody else called their rep's office to see where they stand? I'm sure we can get a good idea where this is going by doing our own little poll.
 
"I have some concerns because this is more punitive than it needs to be," Wheatley said. "There are too many senseless deaths. We all struggle with gun violence in the city streets and in rural areas, and there is a black market in which someone legally buys a gun and then gives it to a criminal, but this is a little too punitive to the law-abiding citizens."

I like this quote . "A little to punitive" ? So law abiding citizens ARE suppose to be punished , just not this harshly? At least she withdrew hew name .
 
When the rural residents of PA allow the cities of Phily and Pitts to dictate their politics, this is what you get.
 
Registration (I mean "safety inspection") has worked great at reducing crime in Michigan during the 80 years we had it.....look at Detroit, Flint, and Saginaw.:barf:

Good luck Pennsylvania.
 
If there are 589,000 concealed weapons holders in PA there are 589,000 dollars to fight this legislation. Implementing this law and having it challenged in court, where it will certainly be over-ruled, could be the biggest anti-gun error the PA government ever made.
 
Posted by RecoilRob:
I know State Troopers here. They are NOT in favor of this bill. They do NOT want to try to serve any warrants brought about by this bill. There are MANY Pennsylvanians who will fight rather than subject themselves to this UnConstitutional (both US and PA) bill.
What do they have to say about the PA State Police Handgun Registry?

It is too bad that everyone isn't equally as POed about the Handgun Registry that is already in place.
 
It wont go. Too much outrage. Sponsers dont withdraw their support unless something__really__F'd up is in the bill.

It is the most intrusive reg. system I have ever heard of, even Hawaii's is not this bad.
 
From our local paper with a local police chiefs opinion;

Gun bill misfires, critics say
Philly lawmaker proposes making state gun owners pay to register each weapon.
TOM VENESKY [email protected]




It’s a problem that Wright Township Police Chief Joe Jacob says never changes: criminals who commit crimes with guns usually obtain the weapons illegally.

That’s why Jacob feels a bill introduced in the state House of Representatives won’t do anything to help police officers fight crime.

House Bill 760, introduced by state Rep. Angel Cruz, D-Philadelphia County, would require gun owners to register all firearms with the state every year for a fee of $10 per gun. The measure would also require all gun owners to submit to fingerprinting, background checks and passport-style photos in order to obtain a registration card. The registration card for each gun would have to be carried with that firearm at all times.

If a registration application is rejected, the applicant would have to surrender their firearms to the state police.

Cruz said the bill is a way to implement a tracking system to determine the source of firearms for criminals who commit gun violence.

But, Jacob sees it differently. He says the measure won’t help officers and won’t help law-abiding gun owners. Nor will it decrease gun violence, he said.

“That bill will not lessen crime in Philadelphia or anywhere else in the state,” Jacob said. “Criminals are using guns that are stolen or bought illegally on the street.

“I do not see how this will decrease gun violence or the amount of guns in criminals’ hands.”

That’s because the measure, which applies to handguns and rifles, only targets those who purchase their firearms legally, Jacob said.

The bill has put hunting clubs and gun owners in the area on alert. Jerry Schutz, president of the 800-member Luzerne County Federation of Sportsmen, said his members are “up in arms” over the measure. The bill would disarm honest citizens, he said.

“It’s an outrageous piece of legislation. Do they actually think criminals are going to register their guns? The Supreme Court has already ruled that criminals don’t have to register their firearms,” Schutz said, adding the measure is also a money-making scheme.

“If you have 20 guns, that’s $200 you have to pay every year,” he said. “I estimate that each member in our organization has at least four guns in their home.”

Jenkins Township resident David Kopetchny, president of the PA Stump Jumpers hunting club, said the bill is another attempt to undermine the rights of gun owners. The registration fee would create another hardship for him to continue hunting, he said.

Kopetchny said he is a disabled veteran who lives on $960 per month. The game he brings home during hunting season is a valuable food source, he said, but the cost of licenses, ammunition and possibly gun registration may make hunting too costly of an endeavor for Kopetchny to continue.

“I own eight guns, and that would be $80 in permits every year. It’s nonsense,” he said. “If this goes through, I can’t afford to hunt.”

Some local lawmakers – including state representatives Mike Carroll, D-Avoca; Phyllis Mundy, D-Kingston; Eddie Day Pashinski, D-Wilkes-Barre; Jim Wansacz, D-Old Forge; and John Yudichak, D-Nanticoke – have said they will vote against the bill.

Carroll said the bill has “no chance.”


He said the proposal was drafted in response to the rise in crime in the Philadelphia area. Carroll doesn’t fault the lawmakers from making an attempt, but he said the bill isn’t the solution.

The bill has four co-sponsors, Mundy said, an indication that it lacks support. Like Carroll, she doubts the bill will be brought up for a vote.

Pashinski called the bill “economically infeasible” because gun collectors and hunters typically own more than one firearm. He said gun-related crimes are a serious issue, but other avenues have to be looked at to solve the problem.

Yudichak said his office has received many calls from gun owners and hunters concerned about the bill.

Many gun-control efforts in the legislature are misguided, he said, because they target law-abiding citizens and not the criminal element.

Yudichak recommended taking another direction to curb crime.

“I think it’s the drug crime that needs to be combated,” he said. “We need to focus on the true problem – drugs. That’s what is driving the issue.”
 
I don't think the bill will pass. The representatives that have sponsored it need to be shown the door. People get soft when election time comes up. Oh, my rep is okay, but your's is the problem and I don't vote for him/her. This bill is just another in a list of gun control legislation that has been introduced in PA. The problem is that the legislation does not do anything to fight crime in these cities.

What this about the PA State Police Handgun Registry? I have never heard of that.
 
The proposal, under consideration by the House Judiciary Committee, would require gun owners to pay a registration fee of $10 per weapon per year, undergo a state police criminal background check and submit detailed personal information for a registry that would include fingerprints, Social Security numbers, birth dates and passport-sized photographs.

Jesus Christ. I don't think so!

Once again, there's only one group of people that will be injured by this insanity -- and it ain't criminals!

"That bill will not lessen crime in Philadelphia or anywhere else in the state," Jacob said. "Criminals are using guns that are stolen or bought illegally on the street."

Right. The gun grabbers are only using "public safety" as an excuse to disarm everyone.
 
“That bill will not lessen crime in Philadelphia or anywhere else in the state,” Jacob said. “Criminals are using guns that are stolen or bought illegally on the street.

“I do not see how this will decrease gun violence or the amount of guns in criminals’ hands.”
Seems to be an intelligent official. Elect a bunch loke him to elective office now.

They call it a database so it doesn't go against the PA Constitution that states that there can be no such registry.
BIG question, has there ever been a report published that stated the amount of crimes solved by the database?
If they haven't, it sounds like time for a lawsuit to answer this question and to determine if the millions of dollars spent on the database is being wasted.

Has anybody even asked them to make a report on how many crimes they have solved through the database.
Actually, I believe anybody is able to ask for the information by filing a Freedom if Information request.
 
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I distinctly remeber an arguement with another Pa member who stated that there was no such animal as a Pa handgun registration.:rolleyes:

This bill is highly unlikely to pass as it is something that would affect the hunters as well as us gun nuts. Hunting is huge in Pa. Schools around here give the first day of buck season off since so few kids show up anyway.

Lastly, even if it were to pass, there would be widespread civil disobedience in not registering them. It would be a veritable bloodbath if it came to confiscation.... At least in my neighborhood.;)
 
Not exactly gun related, but tangential. In MN, the Metrocrats were instrumental in passing a transportation bill that funneled statewide transportation dollars into the light rail system for the metro area (MPLS/ St Paul). The entire light rail system being developed is a boondoggle and will NEVER return any money to the state of MN EVER. It will cost the taxpayers of MN som $13 MILLION per year just to run and maintain it for perpetuity. The outstaters will suffer with roads in poor condition because the metrocrats pushed for THEIR light rail.

It's becoming all too common any more that the heavy metro areas control the entire state. I hope this bill dies, but one never knows. An argument can be made that gun registration isn't unconstitutional. However, the fees just might be. If it passes, it could set a bad precedent for the entire Nation.
 
This bill is highly unlikely to pass ...
I have seem this said by a number of poster. Great if it is true, but with so many saying it will never pass; how many are working to make sure it doesn't pass?
 
how many are working to make sure it doesn't pass?

Well, I've already contacted Senator LaValle and Rep. Jim Marshall.
They are both pro rights, not just gun rights.

I've signed the petition at the gun store.

I vote for only pro 2A politicians.

What more would you have me do? Senator Lavalle himself stated that this is just a political stunt by the idiots in Philly.
 
This would pretty much turn us into NJ. We can't allow it.

The problem is HB760 is not just about registration, it also pretty much does away with CCW and self defense through storage restrictions. Here's a piece of that bill discreatly written into the last page of it that non of the sponsors/authors want to talk about:
7 (3) Keep any firearm in the registrant's possession
8 unloaded and disassembled or bound by a trigger lock, gun
9 safe or similar device unless the firearm is in the
10 registrant's immediate possession and control while at the
11 registrant's place of residence or business or while being
12 used for lawful recreational purposes within this
13 Commonwealth. This paragraph shall not apply to law
14 enforcement personnel or security personnel while in the
15 course of their employment.
This is setting the groundwork for the liberal idea that only police and "proper authorities" should have guns. I tend to think it's the real reason for this bill, and it's being hidden under the guise of "...it's only registration...people have to register cars..." (Cruz).

Anyone who lives in PA needs to go the link in my signature. There is a very ongoing discussion of it there, and a lot more info.
 
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