Cutting a fluted barrel ?

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halesb

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Hi all ! I'm new to the forum, and have a quick question. Does anyone have any experience with cutting down a fluted barrel ? I have a Remington 700 Varmint Synthetic with a 26" fluted barrel in .308. It is unfired in the box. I prefer short barrels on my rifles, usually around 20 inches. I am thinking of having it rebuilt by someone like Tactical Rifles, or G & A precision, but I would like to shoot it a bit before I do that. Any thoughts on how the fluted barrel would be effected ? or any issues with the crown ? Thanks for ay input !

halesb
 
I might suggest that if you want to shorten the barrel shorten it to 22''. I personally think You should keep the rifle the way it is or trade it and get another that was designed to be shorter IMHO.
 
Tac Ops Inc. did a test where they took a 26" bbl, and cut it down to 18 inches in 1 inch increments. Shooting 168 gr bullets, they found that a 20 inch barrel allowed for all of the powder to burn, and that going to an 18 inch barrel only equated a loss in velocity of 32 fps. Granted, this can vary a bit more if your using a slower powder, or a different bullet. I do plan on having it rebuilt, lugs lapped, action trued, it's just that I wanted to shoot it a bit before I had it sent off. Have you ever heard of someone trimming down a fluted bbl ? Thanks !
 
Don

I didn't plan on keeping the factory barrel on it when I have it built up. Probably go with Shilen or Douglas, I haven't made my mind up ! I don't mind spending a little money before I send it off, and see how I like the feel of it, getting to play with it a little before I send it off somewhere......
 
In answer to the actual question... No problem cutting the barrel, except for the aesthetic one of the flutes will now have no round-out at the muzzle end (though perhaps a shoulder bevel might soften the look), but any competent smith should have no problem, he'd just have to use a straight 11* bevel crown or a counterbored target crown.
 
halesb,

I have the left handed version of that exact rifle, and love it. There is no denying that the barrel IS long, but that doesn't particularly bother me. I'm just curious as to why it bothers you, particularly since you're going to scrap it soon anyway for a different barrel. Why don't you just shoot it as is, and then send it out for the barrel swap? Personally, I would think that cutting it down just so you can go to the range with it is a waste of time and money. Cutting it down will not approximate the characteristics of the new barrel you plan to have installed; plus, I believe that you would have to get the barrel re-crowned so as to not adversely affect performance.

Another thing to consider is that cutting it down would cause the barrel to heat up faster as you would be diminishing the surface area of the flutes - surface area which exists to radiate heat away from the barrel. This would also have the effect of decreasing the rifle's inherent accuracy.

Third, cutting the barrel down, in the case of a fluted barrel, might actually result in a net loss of rigidity, rather than a net gain as it might in a non-fluted barrel. In the full length fluted barrel, those flutes terminate in the non-fluted area at the muzzle. The raised "lands" of the flutes act as ribs mutually supporting each other against lateral deflection in any direction, anchored at either end by the non-fluted portions of the barrel. Remove one of those non-fluted anchors at either end, and the flutes are no longer mutually supporting ribs and the barrel may lose rigidity, affecting accuracy.

I think that, in the 700 VSF, the engineers at Remington designed the most accurate rifle they could within the constraints of the price point at which they were going to sell it. After all, full retail (and NOBODY pays full retail for anything) on the rifle is $1,159.00, about $30.00 more for a left handed one like mine. I paid $830.00 for mine new in the box. Unless you got hosed, you probably paid somewhere in that price range (not counting scope). You would have to pay a lot more money than that, new in the box, for an already customized rifle with all the upgrades you plan for yours.

By all means, upgrade your rifle and have fun doing it. Enjoy the ownership experience of your customized 700, but I would resist the temptation to "bubba" the barrel if you're going to swap it out soon anyway.

...just my 2¢

TAM
 
TAM,

I like your use of the term "bubba" the barrel ! I've cut down almost every rifle I've had, or gone with carbine versions ! All of my Remington bolt guns have been cut to 20 inches, and the only two that I left factory were an 18" Remington 7600, and a 26" .340 Weatherby ! I have found that the shorter barrels have been more handy, and I have not been that worried about velocity loss. I had a old Savage bolt in .338 that I cut to 20", slapped on some iron sights and it was a lot of fun ! (The muzzle blast wasn't too fun !)
So, I may have to go with your suggestion, run a bunch of rounds through it, and then ship it off ! Thanks for your input.;)
 
halesb,

You're welcome. It's not that I'm against short barrels, or cutting barrels down per se. My brother has a 700 tactical with a 20" barrel that shoots very well. It's just the idea of cutting down a fluted barrel that gives me the heebeejeebees.

Have fun with your project.
 
Clipper said:
Where did you learn Metalurgy Annoyed? If you did, you should get your money back...
I don't claim to know a thing about metallurgy - except that it is correctly spelled with two "L"s. I only claim to have done a lot of reading about barrel harmonics over the years. I'll be the first to admit that everything I've ever read could be hooey.

Maybe you should get your spelling money back? :D
 
So am I, but the fact remains that Annoyed is badly in error. There is no way that a shortening the barrel can do anything but make it stiffer, and the surface area of the barrel per inch does not change, so the ability of the barrel to shed heat does not change to any measureable degree by removing the end that is furthest from the ignition source and thus has almost no influence on cooling.
 
Good points.

I say cut it and be happy. Seems like that is what Halesb wants to do.

Shoot, I just want to be happy too. :D Don't you?

Justin
 
Normal explaination:
Cutting the barrel down will make it lighter, thus less mass to heat up, meaning it WILL heat up faster. It's the same reason they make heavy barrels in the first place, more mass, more heat required to make the whole thing hot.

Scientificish explaination:
Temperature is an intensive property. Heat is an extensive property. They are not the same thing. You will add the same amount of heat to the barrel with each shot, but since there is less mass to distribute that heat to, the temperature will increase faster than if you don't cut it down.



While it will most likely not be a problem (they do make them that length...) you can't just say that it won't heat up faster.
 
I did not say it would have no influence, I said it would have almost no influence, since the section of barrel that will be removed is also not there to absorb the heat that would have been accompanying the bullet down that section of barrel in the first place, not to mention that chamber heat isn't going to radiate 18 inches down the barrel without some real serious expenditure of ammo. Furthermore, I would say that if the loss of area at that distance from the chamber becomes a viable issue, there won't be enough throat left for the loss of accuracy from the overheated barrel to to be noticed...
 
It's more about the mass that you are heating than the surface area. If you cut 8" off the barrel, you are taking away nearly 1/3 of it's mass. A 2 pound chunk of metal will heat up faster than a 3 pound chunk of metal. As for not absorbing the heat that it would have in those last few inches, I agree that is true but the burning powder is the cause of the majority of the heat. The first 18" or so you're still burning powder and the rest of the length it's still expanding, but done burning. While the longer barrel will absorb more heat from the gas going through those extra few inches, it is a lot less heat per inch than the first few. Overall you will have less heat absorbed per unit of mass, meaning a lower barrel temperature.


But again, it really won't matter unless you are going nuts with the thing.
 
Clipper, I didn't say cutting a barrel would make it less stiff. I said cutting a fluted barrel might make it less stiff. I am perfectly aware that short fat barrels tend to be stiffer than long thin ones, and I am not arguing that point. My brother's 700 Tactical's 20" barrel is probably stiffer than my 700 VSF's 26" barrel. But hear me out for a second regarding cutting down fluted barrels...

When a heavy barrel is unfluted, it resists equally in all 360º deflections which occur at right angles to the barrel's axis. When you cut flutes down the length of a barrel, it is no longer as resistant to lateral deflection at the point of the flute as it is at the "lands" between flutes. This would be particularly true if the barrel were fluted for its entire length, right up to the muzzle. However, by tying the "lands" together at either end of the barrel with unfluted segments, the "lands" would tend to be mutually supporting against a deflection along the line of a flute. So my thinking is this: if you could cut down the length of a 26" fluted barrel by removing the middle 6" of length, then yes, the cut down barrel would be stiffer, because it would retain the raised areas at the proximal and distal ends of the barrel, tying the lands together into mutually supporting structures. But for practical reasons, that is not how it would be done, and it is my thinking is that, for the reasons stated above, the resultant cut down barrel would be, at the very best, only as stiff as the original, and at the worst, measurably less stiff.

If I were a degreed engineer in metallurgy, I could probably explain it better, but I lack the vocabulary for it. I hope that what I said makes some kind of sense to somebody. Or, I could be an idiot of the first water and be totally wrong. Right about now, I'm OK with either. My father in law, to whom I was very close, passed away last night after a long hard fight with illness, and we had been keeping a vigil at his beside for the past 48 hours until he passed. My brain does not feel particularly sharp at the moment.
 
Theoretically you're probably right, Annoyed, but I don't think it's going to be enough to measure on a rifle, particularly one with a factory barrel. The majority of the stress trying to flex the barrel is going to be concentrated towards the rear of the barrel. That's where it's anchored, and that's where it is going to be flexing. For the portion of the barrel that ties the flutes together to make a difference, there would have to be enough force going down the barrel to stretch the steel in the land all the way to the end of the barrel. You have a good point, but I don't think it would make a measurable difference on a factory rifle.

Same thing with cutting the barrel down affecting barrel heat. Anytime you force stock through a die it creates a ton of heat through friction- the powder may not still be burning the last 6 inches of the barrel, but the bullet is still being forced down the barrel and heating the barrel the whole way. The last 6 inches adds mass, but it also adds more area to absorb heat, even if it doesn't absorb quite as much as the previous 6 inches. For adding mass to really make a difference, it needs to be added in a way that isn't adding heat as well- you should add it to the diameter of the barrel. You might see a couple degrees difference with a heat gun towards the muzzle, but it'll make little difference at the critical throat area, and won't make any practical cooling difference.

Halesb, my uncle and I both shoot PSS's, which have 26" barrels with no fluting. Definitely shoot it some before you send it off, it might suprise you. My uncle ordered a Kreiger barrel for his, and started shooting it while waiting for the barrel to come in. After a couple of hundred rounds, it started settling in, and now it's shooting so well that he decided to postpone putting the Kreiger on. I won a 600 yd informal club match with mine, shooting against several custom rifles including a 6.5X284 on a Nesika Bay action. My rifle took a couple hundred rounds to settle in, too.

Shoot the rifle a couple hundred rounds with quality match ammo, before you screw on that custom barrel- at least it'll give you a benchmark. If you like short barrels, lop it off, it's not that expensive. What's the worst that can happen, you'll mess up a factory Remington barrel that you were going to replace anyway? Good luck, bet ya like it!
 
Fluted barrels are stiffer than non-fluted barrels...That's why they flute them. Cooling is a secondary consideration. The flutes stiffen a barrel in the same manner that an I-beam is stiffer along it's primary axis than round steel. Fluting accomplishes the same goal as adding multiple ridges to the barrel, without increasing the ammount of stock (and weight) necessary to build it. You don't need to 'tie it together' at the muzzle, it's steel, not balsa wood...
 
Fluted barrels are stiffer than non-fluted barrels...

Uh, oh, I can see it coming, so this is a pre-emptive strike. Fluted barrels are only stiffer when you are comparing barrels of the same WEIGHT and length. If you take two identical length barrels with the same contour, and lighten the one by fluting it, the heavier unfluted barrel is stiffer.

Don
 
Whatever boys, I'll just return to my machine shop and quit trying to tell you computer programmers about properties of metals...
 
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