cylinder wobble.

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JERRY

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I have a Ruger LCR and a Charter Arms, both have the same type of crane/yoke that is encased in the frame when close. Charter Arms was created by a former Ruger employee.

so why in the world when the cylinder is open does the Charter Arms cylinder wobble and the Ruger LCR's doesn't? they are the same design from liked makers...
 
Not the same design, not designed by the same people, not made by the same people.
You're lumping things together that don't lump together & wondering why the end lumps are different. :)
Denis
 
The "wobble" is so that the cylinder and barrel can "self align" to a small degree. Some revolvers need more than others. As long as the gun is not spitting lead and is accurate I wouldn't worry about it at all. Ruger also has more modern machinery than was available to Charter Arms when they started (70s) and is able to hold tighter tolerances than Charter.
 
I don't think that's what he's talking about, he says when the cylinder's open. :)

Jerry, are you talking about rotational "wobble" or forward & backward movement along the tube when the gun's open?
Denis
 
DPris, Im talking about the cylinder wobbling on the crane/yoke AND the crane/yoke having a lot of wobble between it and the frame when it is opened. I guess im not explaining this well so I will look for a video somewhere....
 
I would think the main things to look for in the cylinder is:
That the ejecter returns into flush position after extraction.
When closing the cylinder, it doesn't hit the side of the frame.
After pulling the trigger, with the trigger still depressed, the cylinder is tight with very minimal movement.
And the cylinder's timing.
 
Just the difference between a lesser quality and a better quality firearm. Note I did not use the words junk or crap I just said lesser quality.

In this case, it's really just a difference in design. It does not matter how sloppy a cylinder is when it's open; what matters is the lock up when the trigger is depressed. And, as Drail said, many will still have a couple degrees of play so that the chamber and bore self-align as the bullet enters the forcing cone. Those that have no slop, such as a Colt Python, must be perfectly timed, or they will shave lead and batter the hand (as happens with the Python)
 
Both cylinders will align properly when closed, and that is what is important. The "wobble" when the cylinder is open is a matter of design and manufacturing tolerances. (AFAIK, the first revolver to use that system was the High Standard Sentinel, and it wobbled a bit when open, but closed up tight.)

Jim
 
Cylinder play has to be checked with the (empty) cylinder closed and the trigger holded pulled all the way back. If it is tight in that condition there's nothing to be worried about. Crane/yoke wobble when the cylinder is in the open position is not that important IMHO; you can check the screw that holds the crane in both revolver designs and see if it is a little unscrewed.
 
That ONLY applies to OLDER COLT REVOLVERS, with V mainsprings.
The trigger position has nothing to do with cylinder play or lockup in other brands, or later MKIII & MKV Colts.
Denis
 
In this case, it's really just a difference in design. It does not matter how sloppy a cylinder is when it's open; what matters is the lock up when the trigger is depressed. And, as Drail said, many will still have a couple degrees of play so that the chamber and bore self-align as the bullet enters the forcing cone. Those that have no slop, such as a Colt Python, must be perfectly timed, or they will shave lead and batter the hand (as happens with the Python)


And it's a characteristic of a cheaper gun. They are not fit as well. It's not to say that they aren't functional or decent quality.

It's just like a 1911. Some are really loose, have uneven and large gaps around parts such as the grip safety. Others that cost more will have perfectly fit parts with minimal gaps and evenly spaced.

You get what you pay for.
 
And it's a characteristic of a cheaper gun. They are not fit as well. It's not to say that they aren't functional or decent quality.

I fully agree with that sentiment, but in this case we're still talking about a major difference in design. Comparing the open cylinder wobble of the thin crane on the Charter vs. a S&W or Ruger would be like evaluating a two cars with the wheels off and finding that the one with a fall-off rotor design exhibits play that is not present with the captive design. But bolt the wheels on, and there is no functional difference.
 
If it 'Really Bothers' the OP enough?

He can shim between the crane & the frame with steel or brass shim stock available at any NAPA auto parts store.

Heck, for that matter, a shim washer cut from a beer can would probably last the life of the gun if kept clean & oiled.

rc
 
I fully agree with that sentiment, but in this case we're still talking about a major difference in design. Comparing the open cylinder wobble of the thin crane on the Charter vs. a S&W or Ruger would be like evaluating a two cars with the wheels off and finding that the one with a fall-off rotor design exhibits play that is not present with the captive design. But bolt the wheels on, and there is no functional difference.


I can't argue with that, you are dead on.
 
I fully agree with that sentiment, but in this case we're still talking about a major difference in design. Comparing the open cylinder wobble of the thin crane on the Charter vs. a S&W or Ruger would be like evaluating a two cars with the wheels off and finding that the one with a fall-off rotor design exhibits play that is not present with the captive design. But bolt the wheels on, and there is no functional difference.

not the same comparison. I specifically compared like designed Ruger LCR guns with Charter Arms. they both have the same crane/yoke type assembly with regards to how it attaches to the frame.
 
"That ONLY applies to OLDER COLT REVOLVERS, with V mainsprings.
The trigger position has nothing to do with cylinder play or lockup in other brands, or later MKIII & MKV Colts."

The fit of the hand, extractor and bolt all contribute to in battery alignment of the cylinder. Every decent quality revolver I have handled or owned has exhibited this. Exclude from this group the turn of the century minimal lock work types.

Check cylinder rotational movement with the trigger held back. Release the trigger. Repeat cylinder rational movement check. It increases in most cases. The side of the hand holds the cylinder's rotational position against the bolt, assuring the degree of alignment.
 
No.
Only in the older Colt does the hand serve a dual purpose.
In those, it rotates the cylinder around into lockup position with the bolt (or cylinder latch as Ruger calls it), and when the trigger's fully pulled to the rear the hand is forced against the ratchet under pressure to also provide SOME of the lockup.

That "locks" the cylinder in place & prevents any little rotational play common to other brands & later Colts.

In other revolvers, the hand only serves to provide one function- it rotates the cylinder into full bolt lockup, in battery.
Once it's done that, it does nothing else.
It does not produce significant lockup pressure against the ratchet with the trigger pulled back.

The Colts were designed to do that, others are not.
That Colt design feature is the V-Spring's greatest weakness, since it does maintain pressure by, and on, the hand at the moment of ignition.

The hand takes a good thump on every shot fired, which eventually wears it faster than other designs.
The hand shortens over time, faster than any other revolver using comparable quality steel.
That results in that older action going out of time sooner than competing designs., depending on how much & what you shoot.

Colt dropped their famous "bank vault lockup" with all of their DA revolver designs that followed, and that weakness is one of the major reasons why.

Taking S&W vs Colt for comparison purposes, you typically correct for timing issues in a V-Spring Colt by replacing the worn/shortened hand with a LONGER hand (in the old days when Colt had replacement hands) or by peening it to stretch it longer (current fix, since Colt has no more hands for them).

You typically correct timing in a Smith by replacing with a WIDER hand.

The hands in those two actions do not serve exactly the same purpose & do not function in exactly the same way.

Testing for cylinder lockup with the trigger pulled & held back will tell you exactly nothing on any revolver other than the old Colt V-Spring actions.

The "Trigger Test" is a widely held myth & does not apply across the board.

In some cases, with tolerance stacking, you may notice a very slight difference in lockup with the trigger held back on non-Colts, but it is not a design feature, it is a mere happenstance, and it has no validity whatsoever in determining, measuring, gauging, or judging lockup on anything BUT an older Colt.
Denis
 
The latter two posts are not really pertinent because the question involved an open cylinder, not the rotational lockup of a properly closed cylinder.

Jim
 
In the larger sense, pretty much.
But, the idea that the trigger position has any relevance to cylinder "wobble" in any position in DA revolvers aside from the old Colts needs to be corrected when it's set forth as gospel.

It's for the children!!!! :)

(And those who may not know any better, believe it & pass it on.)
Denis
 
DPris, you are correct in the primary function of the hand in ,say, S&W and Ruger revolvers is to rotate tge cylinder. However, the hand provides lateral pressure against the side of the extractor. The hand window in the frame provides the support against the opposite side of the hand. The cylinder bolt provides the stop which prevents tge cylinder from over rotating from the hand lateral pressure. All you have to do is that test I mentioned to see it.

Also, I precision timed my Security Six and Redhawk using that method. Check Nonte's manual of pistolsmithing. It is in there.
 
Mag,
The hand may provide some light pressure, but it is not a substantial part of the lockup in anything but the older Colts mentioned, and holding the trigger back on anything BUT those old Colts tells you nothing about whether the gun is locking up properly.

It is not a valid test of lockup, correct function, tolerances, or anything else in relation to cylinder movement, either minor rotational play, endshake, or hand wear.

It is a totally useless "test".
Denis
 
mods, close this thread, its drifted far away from what I wanted opinions on.
 
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