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CZ-52 vs. TT-33

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Zundfolge, May 11, 2003.

?

Which 7.62x25?

  1. CZ-52

    149 vote(s)
    64.8%
  2. TT-33

    81 vote(s)
    35.2%
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  1. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    A while back I shot a friends CZ-52. I liked the round, thought the gun was neeto and since they tend to be inexpensive and C&R I've thought about getting my hands on one.

    However, I've read several good things about the TT-33s too. So aside from aesthetics (the TT is kinda ugly ... well so's the CZ, but the TT is uglier :p ) what are the pros and cons of each?

    If given the choice which would you get (and why)


    CZ-52
    [​IMG]


    TT-33
    [​IMG]
     
  2. Tamara

    Tamara Senior Member

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    The CZ wins on the funkiness factor and the fact that the Tokarev is possibly the least naturally-pointing handgun (for me, at least) that I've ever tried.
     
  3. Covey Rise

    Covey Rise Member

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    I got a CZ-52

    It's built like a tank, fun to shoot, lots of flash, the accuracy is mind boggling, I can shoot it out too 100 yards with only 2 inches of drop (1800 fps). The sights are small and really lend to long range accuracy. No problem to shoot a 8 inch group at 100 yards with new good ammo off a reasonable steady rest.

    I used to shoot it every range visit 16 rounds slow fire(2 clips, 8 rounders), but since I got my new Razorback 10mm I just don't get around too shooting it, since the 10mm is streaking out there nearly same speed with a heavier 135 grain bullet. I really don't use the cz much now, I have shot about 200 rounds thru it not one malfunction.

    Tell you what, I will sell it too you for $150 + shipping, the gun is in like new condition except on grip has some minor scratches on it from it's police days. Anyway, if your interested I can post some photos. I have a friend who is FFL holder can send right too you if you have C&R FFL and you will know what your getting before you order it unlike the mail houses.

    Thanks,
     
  4. Mike Irwin

    Mike Irwin Member

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    CZ-52 will handle much more powerful ammo than the TT-33.

    It was designed around a seriously hopped up version of the 7.62 Tok. round.

    Both have very neat design aspects.

    The CZ the fact that it's roller locked, the TT the fact that the ammo feed lips aren't part of the magazine but are part of a detachable lockwork block.

    Ergonomics on both are just simply awful.
     
  5. cratz2

    cratz2 Member

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    No reason not to get them both! :p

    But on paper, weighing the pros and cons of each, the CZ-52 will come out on top according to my piece of paper.
     
  6. Sean Smith

    Sean Smith Member

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    CZ-52, easily.
     
  7. George Hill

    George Hill Member

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    Who voted for the TT-33? And Why? :scrutiny:

    The CZ-52 can handle firing the hotter 7.62X25MM ammunition... has a cool roller action based on the MG-42... The take down is one of the easiest ever. The grips pop off easily with the removal of a clip. The gun is even cool looking.
    what is not to like?
     
  8. denfoote

    denfoote Member

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    George,
    No reason at all!! In fact, I plan on getting a CZ-52 as my next handgun!!!
     
  9. Erich

    Erich Member

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    FYI

    There's controversy as to which gun is actually stronger. Check out the military handguns board on gunboards.com (where the serious milsurp guys hang out). . . a gent over there has posted that he's done a lot of experimenting and found that the CZ's action may be stronger, but the CZ-52's bbl blows before this comes into play and before the Tok blows.

    Beats me, but I've definitelyi seen a few blown-up CZs posted on forums. I own a Polish Tok myself, but I've fired a few CZs and enjoyed them. They're both fun guns. I don't plan on firing any milsurps with overpowered ammo, and I would wholeheartedly recommend that everyone avoid doing anything like that.
     
  10. George Hill

    George Hill Member

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    Hmmm... that is a good point. I have seen 3 CZ-52 barrels that were blown.
    However all of them were the results of handloads pushing 2200 FPS.
    I think using standard loadings or suprlus loads, the kind you usually buy at the gunshows... this "Strength Issue" isnt an issue.
     
  11. euclid

    euclid Member

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    The innards of the CZ-52 are just way too cool, and to be able to pick one up for under $200 is supercillious. The roller lock-up mechanism utilized in the CZ-52 is an over-engineered marvel.

    The TT-33 is a brutish block of a handgun. Still cool though.

    Can you tell I pretty much dig ANY type of handgun?

    poof...
     
  12. Dr.Rob

    Dr.Rob Moderator Staff Member

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    Both are ergonomicly strange to me, and a real Tok doesn't have a safety (yikes) and though the 52 has a stronger action it also breaks firing pins with regularity.

    Still I saw a guy run a batch of Czech ammo through one that was still partially encased in cosmoline (idiot).
     
  13. RON in PA

    RON in PA Member

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    I voted for the TT because I like the way it shoots. It doesn't have trigger slap and the trigger pin doesn't move out during shooting. My only complaint about the TT is the too straight grip.

    As for the greater strength of the CZ, I wonder if that's myth of gun writers taken as gospel by us gun nuts on the web. Do a search for threads by Clark about the comparative strength.

    I've posted before that I think the CZ52 was adopted so that the Czechs could show some independence and thumb their noses at the Soviets.
     
  14. spacemanspiff

    spacemanspiff Senior Member

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    i bought a cz-52 last year, its fun to look at. not very reliable, mine jams up frequently. i do need to replace as much of the innards as possible though, also some new mags and whatnot.

    i was cleaning up this last weekend and went through my jar of ammo that either didnt fire or was involved in some sort of malfunction. one round of 7.62x25 was in there, and i noticed a dent in the primer, figured it was a dud. then i noticed the case had a 1/2 inch crack down the neck. it was from some old surplus bin i came across at a gun store. packaged in brown paper wrapping of 16 rounds each, for $1.95 each packet.

    when my cz-52 does fire, it is a fun little package.
     
  15. Captain Scarlet

    Captain Scarlet Member

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    I prefer the TT-33 or "Tokarev"

    because it is more reliable, you dont need to worry about your
    firing pin breaking like with the Czech pistol [CZ52] the TT-33 is
    based on a COLT / BROWNING design, much more conventional
    for a pistol, the TT-33 has a better feeling trigger pull and the
    pistol feels a little more compact / flat. The CZ52 is an interesting
    piece but it is over engineered. I also like the removable hammer sear disconector assembly on TT-33's , it lifts right out for easy
    maintenance and it has built in magazine feed lips. :neener:
     
  16. 444

    444 Member

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    I would take the TT-33 even though I already own a couple CZ52s and no TT-33s. Why not ? To me it looks better and to me, it is just a play toy so why not buy based on looks. Both would be a lot of fun though. I don't know what these cost now, but maybe get them both. I paid under $100 for each of my CZ52s. Is there anywhere selling nice TT-33s now ?
     
  17. Captain Scarlet

    Captain Scarlet Member

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    the TT-33 is a combat proven pistol!

    the TT-33 also use to be the standard issue side arm of most
    communist and Com bloc countries, it has been used in many
    wars WWII - Korea - Vietnam to present day, even in Iraq.
    TT-33 have seen very widespead usage, the CZ52 has only
    been used in limited numbers, not as common.

    I like the TT-33 because of it's rich history as a combat pistol.
    :cool:
     
  18. Andrew Wyatt

    Andrew Wyatt Member

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    i like the cz-52 about fifteen thousand and a half times better because IT ACTUALLY HAS A SAFETY.


    also, it fits in some 1911 holsters.
     
  19. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Member

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    CZ-52 wins on trigger pull (once the firing pin is replaced with a modern geometry/material one) and accuracy in my experience. Stronger than the Tokarev? Hardly. The strength of the roller locked action isn't doesn't do anything to stop the gun from coming apart when the thin barrel fails beneath the chamber. Look at a Tokarev barrel and the CZ. CZ's fail in a catastrophic fashion due to a poorly supported chamber. How many destroyed Tokarevs have we seen on the net? Look at Clarks post on this issue on TFL and the surplus board. Many posters may not condone his actions, but his method is scientific and the Tokarev is currently leading from a strength perspective.
    Put a good sights, and a saftey that works on a TT-33 and we'll see how it ranks.
     
  20. David4516

    David4516 Member

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    I voted Tokarev. It's fun to shoot and looks cool. I think the whole "CZ-52 is stronger" thing is a myth, I've seen several pics of blown CZ-52s, so they can't be that strong...
     
  21. Clark

    Clark Member

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    The CZ52 blows up at less than the 65kspi that it takes to make the primer fall out of a rimless brass case. No other pistol I am aware of that takes rimless cases is that weak.

    I need to do no more CZ52 tests to convince myself.
    The CZ52 is the weakest semi auto pistol I have tested.

    The 25 acp pistols I have tested are stronger.
    The 32 acp pistols I have tested are stronger.
    The 380 pistols I have tested are stronger.
    The 9x19mm pistols I have tested are stronger.
    The 9x23mm pistols I have tested are stronger.
    The 40 S&W pistols I have tested are stronger.
    The one 10 mm pistol I have tested is stronger.
    The 45 acp pistols I have tested are stronger.
    The other 7.62x25mm pistols [Tokarevs] are stronger.


    The CZ52 is a weak pistol, and I have proved with calculations and tests. and posted it:
    http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80232
    http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67826
    http://www.gunboards.com/forums/UltraBoard.cgi?action=Read&BID=10&TID=7542&SID=1140910
    http://groups.google.com/groups?as_...guns&as_uauthors=clark&lr=&as_scoring=d&hl=en
    http://talk.shooters.com/room_47/7653.cfm
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wa-ccw/message/26767
    http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=22034&highlight=CZ52
    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3047&highlight=CZ52
    http://www.reloadbench.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000494-2.html
    http://www.loadyourown.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000106.html
    http://pub125.ezboard.com/fcollectorguns35625frm5.showMessage?topicID=111.topic
    http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=118237

    It is not rocket science.
    No other pistol is as thin in the chamber wall as the CZ52 is on the bottom where material is milled out to make room for the rollers.

    [​IMG]
     
  22. Mike Irwin

    Mike Irwin Member

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    I think "strength" is a relative thing here, Folks.

    I've seen Toks that have had their barrels split and slides bulged from shooting Czech ammo meant for the CZ 52, yet the 52 digests the stuff all day long...
     
  23. PCRCCW

    PCRCCW Member

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    I TOTALLY BEG TO DIFFER with you Clark. The OEM/Factory loaded Tokerav round is around 45-50K PSI case pressure.
    We have loaded them to in the mid 50's and have shot thousands of rounds with this pressure.....1700+ FPS with a 85 gr load.

    The 10-52 headstamp rounds are in excess of 65K Case pressure at times and they will split the barrel if shot through the gun more than a couple of times or you have bad luck.

    The fact that the OEM Tok round has the same case pressure as a FULL HOUSE 357 mag load and the CZ52 will take that case pressure forever is enough to make my point.

    Shoot well
     
  24. Nightcrawler

    Nightcrawler Member

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    I want BOTH. Probably a Tokarev first, but then a CZ-52, too.

    Both will handle lots and lots of the 7.62x25mm ammo that's new manufactured by S&B, right?
     
  25. Clark

    Clark Member

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    Nightcrawler,
    Yes the CZ52 is fine as far as I know with factory ammo.
    All this talk is over some academic strength hierarchy that only matters to a few people.


    PCRCCW,
    I am not saying that the CZ52 can't take the 40 kpsi of 357 pressures all day.
    I am saying that unlike every other pistol I have tested, it can't take the pressure that makes the primer fall out ~65kpsi.

    Tell me a load you think a Tokarev can't take, but the brass can. I have a big library of powders and bullets here.

    Mike,
    try to find some sort of source data. That is engineering talk for the lab notes or raw calculations. I think you will find as I have that there are a dozen books that talk about the CZ52s great strength, based on some assumptions about Czech ammo, that all turns out to be a house of cards. None of the authors can back any of it up with source data.


    I got a Letter from Ted Curtis ballistican at Accurate Arms in March of 2000. Ted Curtis, a very old ballistican already was bald and had jowls in his 1966 photo in "Speer 7". All the typos are Ted's:

    "7.62 X 25 Tokarev

    Due to the large number of handguns imported into the U.S. chambered
    for the 7-62 x 25 Tokarev Accurate Arms has developed the following load
    data for those shooters who wish to reload the little powerhouse. In
    determining the appropriate pressure limit for our load data we tested
    various military ammo from China, Russia, Austria Bulgaria and the
    Czech Republic. Commercial ammo produced by Sellier and Berloit was also
    tested. Based on these tests we arrived at a maximum pressure for our
    lad data of 42,000 C.U.P. Only the single lot of Russian ammo was
    significantly below this pressure averaging 31,000 C.U.P. The consistent
    pressures between all other type sand manufactures was a welcome
    surprise . Indeed, the fact that CZech ammo, made for the CZ-52 pistol,
    produced the same pressure as that of the other countries was perhaps
    the biggest surprise of the whole project. This in spite of the "tribal
    lore" regarding this particular handgun and the ammo loaded for it
    claiming that shooting Czech ammo in any other firearm so chambered will
    causes spontaneous disassembly. The pressure data produced by the ammo
    tested certainly doesn't support this theory. ..."

    [​IMG]
     

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