Cron
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Had any experience with CZ over/unders? For a frame of reference, how do they compare to the Citori?
Cz O/u
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RNB65
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Save your money and buy a used Citori.
CZ only makes handguns and rifles. Their shotguns are made by Huglu in Turkey. Strictly second rate IMHO.
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CZ only makes handguns and rifles. Their shotguns are made by Huglu in Turkey. Strictly second rate IMHO.
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mswestfall
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I know nothing about their durability...
All but the Woodcock appear to be similar in profile to the Citori. The Woodcock looks narrower.
The wood, finish and art are not as elaborate on a CZ. That is all reflected in the price.
I only know one guy that has one, a SxS. He is rather proud of it.
All but the Woodcock appear to be similar in profile to the Citori. The Woodcock looks narrower.
The wood, finish and art are not as elaborate on a CZ. That is all reflected in the price.
I only know one guy that has one, a SxS. He is rather proud of it.
"CZ" O/U's I've seen seem pretty rough. They're less expensive than Berettas, but when I handle both, I can see and feel the price difference easily. Not a bargain, just a cheaper shotgun (and the words "Made in Turkey" still mean "Do not buy" to me, even though you will read that, supposedly, Turkish guns have improved a lot in the last year or two
). My SKB is over 30 years old, my Browning, which I sold, was nearly that and had hundreds of thousands of rounds through it, so "improved a lot in the last couple years" means diddleysquat in the shotgun world, where there are affordable guns with reputations built over decades, not months.
Citoris are very different from most O/U's, with their own peculiar handling characteristics. I don't much care for the big boxy 12's (as field guns anyway), but they're very well-made, finely-fitted and machined, VERY durable shotguns.
If you want a top-notch "forever" shotgun that will last, and handles well, for a decent price, check out an SKB, and definitely check out a Beretta White Onyx before spending money on something else.
Also, see CDNN's catalog for some Winchester models on clearance. These are GREAT shotguns, and some of the prices are downright cheap right now. If you don't absolutely NEED the different checkering on the 2008 models, you can save a lot of dough without compromising on quality.
Bottom line, to me, is still this: Beretta, FN and Miroku (Browning/Winchester), and SKB (Formerly Ithaca SKB, then Weatherby, now under their own name), maybe a few others, sell "affordable" guns (in the $1000-2000 NIB range) and have forged solid reputations for decades. How cheap would the Huglu ("CZ") have to be, considering Huglus long-standing less-than-stellar reputation, to make it worth buying when you can pick up a plain SKB for just over a grand? Only you can answer that, but I know what the answer is, for me.
). My SKB is over 30 years old, my Browning, which I sold, was nearly that and had hundreds of thousands of rounds through it, so "improved a lot in the last couple years" means diddleysquat in the shotgun world, where there are affordable guns with reputations built over decades, not months.Citoris are very different from most O/U's, with their own peculiar handling characteristics. I don't much care for the big boxy 12's (as field guns anyway), but they're very well-made, finely-fitted and machined, VERY durable shotguns.
If you want a top-notch "forever" shotgun that will last, and handles well, for a decent price, check out an SKB, and definitely check out a Beretta White Onyx before spending money on something else.
Also, see CDNN's catalog for some Winchester models on clearance. These are GREAT shotguns, and some of the prices are downright cheap right now. If you don't absolutely NEED the different checkering on the 2008 models, you can save a lot of dough without compromising on quality.
Bottom line, to me, is still this: Beretta, FN and Miroku (Browning/Winchester), and SKB (Formerly Ithaca SKB, then Weatherby, now under their own name), maybe a few others, sell "affordable" guns (in the $1000-2000 NIB range) and have forged solid reputations for decades. How cheap would the Huglu ("CZ") have to be, considering Huglus long-standing less-than-stellar reputation, to make it worth buying when you can pick up a plain SKB for just over a grand? Only you can answer that, but I know what the answer is, for me.
Cron
Member
Thank you. Looks like no CZ for me.
Barr
Member
I have a CZ Redhead and love the way it shoots. I had a Mossberg Silver Reserve before that and it gave me massive problems. I detailed that experience in a previous post/thread. I have well over 3-400 rounds through the CZ with no problem. The length of pull is a touch longer than most American shotguns but I have grown used to it and now enjoy not having my thumb next to my nose. Being 6 foot does not hurt either. One day I might trade up to a Browning Citori, but right now I have 7-800 reasons to not buy a new Citori. Even a used Citori still gives me 300+ reasons to not buy one. It has been very hard to find local stores that have the CZ shotguns in stock because they have been wildly popular at the stores I frequent.
Before you discount the CZ shotguns go pick a few up at the store and check the balance. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
Before you discount the CZ shotguns go pick a few up at the store and check the balance. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
Ash
Member
The Valmet-made Savage shotguns are great and can be had for $400-$600. Of course, they are all used and all will be 30 years old, but are very solid and rugged. You can get Valmet-branded shotguns in the same way, up to the 412 and will be much newer but a bit more expensive. You can get a Marocchi-made Finnclassic (or a Tikka 412/512, which is also made by Marocchi) but prices go up (except that their prices are about the same as the CZ's).
The SKB/Beretta/Browning direction is good, of course, and you will not go wrong that route. But there are some great shotguns out there on the used market that are excellent and considerably cheaper.
Ash
The SKB/Beretta/Browning direction is good, of course, and you will not go wrong that route. But there are some great shotguns out there on the used market that are excellent and considerably cheaper.
Ash
I picked up my Ithaca SKB 20 Gauge for 500 bucks.
The Valmets are excellent guns, as you say. OTOH I've been burned by a used shotgun, a Browning at that. If you don't know what to look for and at, and I didn't, it IS possible for a gun to be trashed, even a very durable one. And Valmet shotguns are gone, daddy gone, so don't expect factory service, or even parts necessarily. Make damn sure the thing is in good shape when you buy it.
If you just want to shoot a gun and not become a gunsmith, there are some advantages to buying a new gun, especially if you don't know exactly what to look for. I learned the hard way; you don't have to.
If THAT didn't scare you up to paying extra for a proven gun, then I suppose nothing will. Silver Reserve owners I've known end up wishing they had their 500 bucks back, and have ended up buying a new Beretta, Browning, or Winchester. Might as well learn from their mistake and just buy the good gun up front, without spending extra tuition at the School of Hard Knocks. Save a few hundred bucks by not insisting on Fancy Walnut, extra engraving, etc. All the quality makers, even Beretta, sell good-looking guns that are top-quality, without a lot of embellishments, for decent prices. And as I said, check CDNN. A brand-new Belgian-made Winchester for $899 is hard to beat, and they're offering them right now.
870's are available cheap, and they shoot well. There's really no compelling reason to pay good money for an O/U unless it's going to be around for a long while and hold its value both to you and to a buyer if you want to sell it.
That's just the opinion of someone who wishes he could go back in time and get back some of the money and time he spent.
Y'all do whatever you want.
Ash
Member
Valmet parts can be had without too much trouble. My 333 came with a cracked stock and I replaced it with a Marocchi-made stock (that was nicer than what was broken.) The Marocchi parts will fit the Valmet 312 and up (Savage 333). The Savage 330 and the Valmet Lion (the same) have parts readily available (but indeed, no longer made so that is a shrinking supply).
As to CDNN shotties, I certainly agree with that, as well as buying good new over used when possible. I suppose that if a man must have an O/U (the 870 really will do almost everything (or the 500)) but can only afford $500, then a used Savage 330 or 333 is the way to go. A new Silver Reserve would probably be fine for occaisional hunting but certainly not for competition.
Me, I use my 333 for rabbits and the like. I use my Mossberg 500 for ducks. I have neither the time nor money to compete, regardless the gun.
Ash
As to CDNN shotties, I certainly agree with that, as well as buying good new over used when possible. I suppose that if a man must have an O/U (the 870 really will do almost everything (or the 500)) but can only afford $500, then a used Savage 330 or 333 is the way to go. A new Silver Reserve would probably be fine for occaisional hunting but certainly not for competition.
Me, I use my 333 for rabbits and the like. I use my Mossberg 500 for ducks. I have neither the time nor money to compete, regardless the gun.
Ash
Surely, for those who have a well-equipped home shop and a penchant for skilled scrounging, there are ways to finagle a good shotgun for less-than-new prices.
I made the assumption that, if someone is looking at a new CZ, he's not looking to tinker around and/or figure out how to get a stock to fit a Valmet. This assumption could be wrong, of course, so take what I wrote above in the context of that assumption and ignore it if said assumption doesn't apply.
This much is fairly safe to say: if you end up taking the gun to a gunsmith and paying for said tinkering, you'll probably wish you'd just bought a new one. If you can and want to do it yourself (and don't end up spending too much on parts and tools), it might be well worth it.
That said, I haven't necessarily come out ahead, even with a common gun like an 1100, and some dedicated scrounging.
I made the assumption that, if someone is looking at a new CZ, he's not looking to tinker around and/or figure out how to get a stock to fit a Valmet. This assumption could be wrong, of course, so take what I wrote above in the context of that assumption and ignore it if said assumption doesn't apply.
This much is fairly safe to say: if you end up taking the gun to a gunsmith and paying for said tinkering, you'll probably wish you'd just bought a new one. If you can and want to do it yourself (and don't end up spending too much on parts and tools), it might be well worth it.
That said, I haven't necessarily come out ahead, even with a common gun like an 1100, and some dedicated scrounging.
Ash
Member
I agree. For $899, the Winchesters are a great deal on CDNN. It would be best to avoid Turkish shotguns in any case, except that the newer ones are probably fine for casual hunting. The Turks are certainly not up to competition.
Ash
Ash
Barr
Member
To reply to ArmedBear's response,
Just because I have had a negative experience with a particular brand of gun that is cheaper than other upscale alternatives, does not mean that I will never buy a gun that has a good deal on it pricewise.
To make a blanket statement like
I have since bought a Bersa Thunder .380 and a Dan Wesson Pointman 7, both of which I consider to be "relatively cheap" buys for what they are. I could not be happier with either of them. I consider the Bersa cheap due to a $210 price tag out the door brand new with a box of ammo. I consider the Dan Wesson to be relatively cheap due to all the extras built into the gun with a good name (CZ) standing behind it.
Your mileage may vary and I wish you the best with your purchases in the future. I just find that this approach works for me by allowing me to buy new guns and being able to find several purchases at the same time. I have also bought used guns when available, but even that can be fraught with trouble if not carefully examined.
Just because I have had a negative experience with a particular brand of gun that is cheaper than other upscale alternatives, does not mean that I will never buy a gun that has a good deal on it pricewise.
To make a blanket statement like
implies that all good deals are just accidents waiting to happen. What I learned from that experience was to never buy another Mossberg, specifically a double barrel from them. I ended up getting all of my money back from the store a year later so I am not out anything except the aggravation of the experience.
I have since bought a Bersa Thunder .380 and a Dan Wesson Pointman 7, both of which I consider to be "relatively cheap" buys for what they are. I could not be happier with either of them. I consider the Bersa cheap due to a $210 price tag out the door brand new with a box of ammo. I consider the Dan Wesson to be relatively cheap due to all the extras built into the gun with a good name (CZ) standing behind it.
Your mileage may vary and I wish you the best with your purchases in the future. I just find that this approach works for me by allowing me to buy new guns and being able to find several purchases at the same time. I have also bought used guns when available, but even that can be fraught with trouble if not carefully examined.
I'm afraid you missed the point completely.
Not at all. It implies that not everything with a low price tag is a good deal.
A strange lesson to take from it, since you bought a Khan, not a Mossberg. It's Mossberg's own damned fault if they want to trash their reputation by stamping their name on Khans, but really, the guns made by Mossberg are genuine good deals, and serve many people very well, for dramatically lower prices than their competition. Mossbergs don't deserve a bad rap, just because Khans do. Hell, even the US military issues Mossberg pumps now, and they've been bringing game home forever and a day.
Anyway, I do hope the Huglu treats you better than the Khan.
And the fact remains, as someone with a finite budget, I have at times in my life wished I hadn't bought a "good deal", but rather saved my money for when I found a good deal. To tell a would-be buyer otherwise would be dishonest. "Upscale" means sh1t to me. I just want a well-balanced gun that lasts.
I'll probably get a Bersa myself, one of these days. They make a damn good gun down in Argentina. That has little to do with what someone else is doing in Turkey, however, especially with a design that is, unfortunately, inherently rather expensive if you make it right.
It's not always easy to ferret out where the truly good deals are. Maybe CZ really has made Huglu shape up. However, if you read above, you will see that wasn't my point. There are guns out there that have reputations forged over decades and billions of rounds, so a buyer doesn't have to take any chances, and, to me, that has value. With Huglu, nobody really knows. Their past reputation has sure not put them in the same league as a Citori, and that's all anyone can say for sure.
Cron
Member
I appreciate all the comments. While I fully agree about the 870 it won't be concidered because I already have one.
The last Ithaca SKB I owned was a sweet handling and elegant little 20 ga. But it didn't fit me well and bruised me worse than any 12 ga. I've ever fired!
The CDNN Winchesters are worth investigating.
Thanks again.
The last Ithaca SKB I owned was a sweet handling and elegant little 20 ga. But it didn't fit me well and bruised me worse than any 12 ga. I've ever fired!
The CDNN Winchesters are worth investigating.
Thanks again.
Is there any issues with buying from CDNN or with the quality of the Winchesters, Browning Citori Classic Featherwight, or Ruger Red label English Stock O/U's they advertise at reduced prices (from others)?
Seems to me that any of the 3 guns above $900 - $1200 fits a decent budget with a quality gun -- so what's the catch?
Seems to me that any of the 3 guns above $900 - $1200 fits a decent budget with a quality gun -- so what's the catch?
kentucky_smith
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Nope. CDNN buys cheap and passes the savings on.
I'd pass on the RRL though regardless of where they came from.
I'd pass on the RRL though regardless of where they came from.
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