cz vs sphinx

[Revolver Ocelot]

I was looking into getting a cz p07 and while I was looking up info on it when I stumbled upon the sphinx sdp.

I understand some of the differences between the two pistols but would like to hear about how they compare in terms of accuracy, reliability, ergonomics etc.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

This came up recently on this forum and I'll just cut and paste part of what I posted earlier.

While these guns look A LOT like the CZ P-07, if you compare parts diagrams and parts list you'll see that the two gun designs are quite different, internally. The new Sphinxes do not seem to be Swiss-made variants of the CZ P-07s -- they seem to be a unique design, especially the frame. Internally, almost nothing about the new Sphinx seems similar to the new P-07 or P-09. User manuals and parts diagrams can be downloaded from their respective sites, if you want to see just HOW different. I suspect, however, that the Sphinx guns will retain the CZ "ergonomic" grip and feel.

Another obvious difference between the two guns seems to be frame materials and frame components, and special finishes. The Sphinx guns have two part frames: all have a metal slide and some variant of 1) polymer upper, polymer lower, 2) alloy upper and polymer lower, or 3) alloy upper and alloy lower. When I dug into the details on the Sphinx site, I saw that they also offer 4) an all-stainless steel (frame) steel model; don't know about the slide on that model. On their site, you can click on the pictures to open other tabs and details.

Note: I've owned two Sphinx pistols (a compact, and a full-size DAO), and they were superbly made, with excetional fit and finish, and great accuracy. If the new Sphinx pistols are anything like the older models, they'll be fine weapons.

The newer Sphinx guns are designed for a slightly different market than other Sphinx pistols -- but I expect they will still be several hundred dollars (or more) than most CZs.

 

[Revolver Ocelot]

Thank you for the info, I love my czs and would hate to buy a pistol that is the clone of a cz pistol (even if it were better) just simply because I feel it more appropriate to buy the original.

Price is no object, my only concern would be that being this is to be a defensive pistol, I would hope that the reliability would meet or exceed what I have come to find with my czs thus far.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

A member of a local (Carolinas) shooters forum has one that he has been evaluating (for a distributor). When I hear his analysis, I'll try to share it. His early comments, however, have been very positive.

 

[barnbwt]

"Thank you for the info, I love my czs and would hate to buy a pistol that is the clone of a cz pistol (even if it were better) just simply because I feel it more appropriate to buy the original."

So, a Browning Hi-Power?

What's with the retro Swiss guns, these days? They're making new production SIG P210-like guns, too (SIG P210 Legend series). I also thought Sphinx was either bankrupt or nearly so until recently; does big SIG have anything to do with their import revival?

TCB

 

[Walt Sherrill]

So, a Browning Hi-Power?

What's with the retro Swiss guns, these days? They're making new production SIG P210-like guns, too (SIG P210 Legend series). I also thought Sphinx was either bankrupt or nearly so until recently; does big SIG have anything to do with their import revival?

Browning HI-Power?

Nothing about the CZ design (except its general appearance) is BHP-like. Internally, they're very different. (I have both, and have detailed stripped both.) CZ didn't steal or borrow anything from the BHP design (except, perhaps, the basic short-recoil, locked-breech design concept used by about 90% of the semi-autos in service, today. But, even that is implemented differently in the two designs. The modern BHP is a much simpler design than the CZ, and is SA only -- the two designs are not related.

And the Sphinx guns, while Swiss-made, are not retro. They are a new design, and while still hammer-fired (as opposed to striker-fired), fairly innovative.

As for the resurgence of the P-210: I think it has to do with Swiss build quality. The demand for the SIG P-210 has only slightly diminished, even as the price continued to rise. These guns were priced like custom guns, and not everyone could afford them or wanted to pay that much. The P-210 design, however, was getting a little dated -- despite its much regarded accuracy -- and the newer models made some minor changes to enhance the design: heavier frame, push button magazine release, completely new magazines, a longer beaver tail (to stop that horrid hammer bite some experienced), a safety lever that no longer scratched the finish, an extra firing pin safety in the slide, a hammer piece i held in place by a screw, a different rear sight cut, and different lever designs... SIG SAUER has also moved to a new finish which is much more durable. (Folks complain, however, that it looks like plastic...)

I had a P-210-6 some years ago, and it was the most accurate gun I've ever shot or owned. (It came with a proof target showing a 5-shot group of 1.75" at 50 meters [roughly 55 yards]. But like some other high quality guns I've owned, there were some things about the P-210 I didn't care for. The revisions cited above fixed the few things that irritated me about the design, and other things that didn't bother me.

The Sphinx guns I owned were the equivalent of semi-custom guns, which probably explains their higher costs. My two 2000 series Sphinxes were very accurate, and the only negatives were their relatively heavy weight and the high-gloss stainless frames, which (like most high-gloss stainless frames) would show every little smudge and minor scratch. These guns were so pretty that they became SAFE QUEENS, and I eventually sold them to buy almost-as-good guns that I would use more regularly.

The new Sphinx models are more practical and while I think they're still building their guns for serious IPSC competition, the newer model line seems to be more SERVICE PISTOL focused, which should find a wider market. The prices, while high seems to compete with guns like the H&Ks, and the design is interesting.

 

[Revolver Ocelot]

Lots of good info on the sphinx, but how do you feel they compare to a cz p07 or 75?

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Lots of good info on the sphinx, but how do you feel they compare to a cz p07 or 75?

As I said in my first response, "If the new Sphinx pistols are anything like the older models, they'll be fine weapons."

That said, I suspect, they'll be SUPERIOR to similar CZs in almost every respect. That is not a criticism of CZs, but an observation that guns that cost a lot more for similar functionality generally cost more because of the extra time and effort spent enhancing fit and finish during production.

You can get a lot of custom gun-smithing for $400-$600. An enhanced CZ from the CZ Custom Shop would probably cost about the same as the Sphinxes, but might be as good or better. Ditto one bought from or tuned by Cajun Gun Works. But, none of these "better" guns are cheap.

 

[Revolver Ocelot]

You can get a lot of custom gun-smithing for $400-$600. An enhanced CZ from the CZ Custom Shop would probably cost about the same as the Sphinxes, but might be as good or better. Ditto one bought from or tuned by Cajun Gun Works. But, none of these "better" guns are cheap.

That's exactly what my thoughts on it were, If I sent a cz off to cz custom to get the full work up I would end up by the end of it being out 1300 bucks, and I would probably have a pistol just as good as the sphinx sdp which is currently going for 1000 on gunbroker. The sdp also seems to have a lot of support for holsters out of the gate, seems to be something the cz never really had.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

That's exactly what my thoughts on it were, If I sent a cz off to cz custom to get the full work up I would end up by the end of it being out 1300 bucks, and I would probably have a pistol just as good as the sphinx sdp which is currently going for 1000 on gunbroker

The key is whether you buy new or used. If you buy new, save shipping costs and buy directly from the CZ Custom Shop. They'll ship to a local FFL, and you pay transfer fees. Buying the gun and shipping to a gunsmith gets expensive. And don't overlook Cajun Gun Works, if you buy used and want to do it yourself, or have CGW do the upgrades.

 

[bc1023]

"Thank you for the info, I love my czs and would hate to buy a pistol that is the clone of a cz pistol (even if it were better) just simply because I feel it more appropriate to buy the original."

So, a Browning Hi-Power?

Huh??

Uh, The CZ 75 and Browning Hi Power are two totally different pistols.

 

[hemiram]

Some people don't think so.

 

[bc1023]

Some people don't think so.

...which is why those people need to learn something about them.

 

[Armor Snail]

Yup.
A CZ75 is no more similar to a BHP than a VZ58 is to an AK.

Same caliber and being made of metal do not make them the same thing.

 

[powwowell]

I've read that the older Spinxes were very similar to the CZ75. The Spinx pistols were supposedly of higher quality, with better fit and finish. The Tanfoglio Witness is a close copy of the CZ. Not an exact clone. Springfield use to import the Tanfoglio and sold it as the P9.

The CZ75, the older Spinx pistols and the Tanfoglios are very similar. And, all very good pistols. A Witness might be the best value out there?

For comparison purposes, the Hi-Power can be left out. As Walt stated, no kin to the CZ.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I've read that the older Spinxes were very similar to the CZ75. The Spinx pistols were supposedly of higher quality, with better fit and finish. The Tanfoglio Witness is a close copy of the CZ. Not an exact clone. Springfield use to import the Tanfoglio and sold it as the P9.

The CZ75, the older Spinx pistols and the Tanfoglios are very similar. And, all very good pistols. A Witness might be the best value out there?

Correct. And if it weren't for EAA's (the U.S. importer of the Tanfoglio-made Witness guns) reputation for terrible customer relations, it might have been a really big seller, rather than jut a good seller. It's a better gun than the firm that imports and sells it.

A bit of history: a firm in Switzerland, then called ITM, built licensed clones of the CZ when the gun was first introduced in the West.

But, when Tanfoglio introduced their version, ITM switched to the Tanfoglio pattern, which at that point was still almost a clone. (The original Tanfoglio version was an almost direct steal of the CZ desigh; thanks to licensing practices, the CZ design was not protected in the West. Over time, the Sphinx design also diverged a bit from the earlier CZ and later Tanfoglio designs -- but also remained generally similar. That said, none of the key parts of any of but the earliest versions of these three guns will interchange.

The new Sphinx service pistol, while it looks like the CZ P-07/P-09, is quite different internally, as can be seen by downloading the user manuals (which include exploded diagrams and parts lists) from the respective websites.

I've owned and shot all three lines of guns and like all three. The Sphinx guns were beautifully made and performed very well -- and were superior to the CZ and Witness guns in every way. My two Sphinx guns (both 2000 series models) were almost too pretty, being high-gloss stainless steel. The Sphinx guns cost a lot more than the other two, when I had mine, but I picked mine up used, so the pain wasn't as great.

The newer Sphinx guns cost more, too. Are they worth it? Could be, but that remains to be seen. These new guns will be competing with the H&K line in price, or the top-end Witness and CZ guns, which are NOT service pistols and which are noticeably larger.

With respect to an earlier rebuttal of the claim that CZs and BHPs were unrelated.

Some people don't think so.

Put simply, SOME people clearly don't know what much about the guns in question.

A lot of folks claim that the CZ and BHP are related, but that has to be based solely on their similar appearance -- as internally there's virtually nothing similar. You can prove it yourself by getting a parts diagram or owner's manual from any of several sites on the Web, and compare the guns. This following site has manuals for all three models: http://stevespages.com/page7b.htm

Or, you can talk to someone who owns both... I do, and have completely disassembled and reassembled both of them. There's nothing about them that is similar, except as noted earlier, that they both use of the Browning short-recoil locked breech design (which is done quite differently in each gun) -- but that system is used in most semi-autos sold nowadays.

.

 

[hemiram]

I had my HP about 25 years ago, and when I bought my first Witness about 10 years ago, I was mystified as to why people seemed to think a CZ type gun was a "double action Hi-Power". People are strange, aren't they?