DA/SA with Manual Safety

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No Style

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Hi All,

Just a question (or two) here from a newbie. I was shooting a friends CZ-75 SP-01 (I think it was the Shadow version, but not sure), anyway it has a frame mounted safety. Obviously it can be carried cocked and locked (round in the chamber, hammer back, safety on), but what is the purpose of the DA feature in the trigger therefore?

It seems a bit redundant to me since the pistol doesn't have a de-cocker fitted. The only use I see for it would be if you manually de-cocked it (i.e. lowered the hammer under your own control with the trigger depressed onto a loaded chamber). This seems somewhat more risky in terms of the process itself, and thereafter as well since the pistol doesn't have a firing pin block (on the models with a manual safety), but; it would then give some purpose to the DA first pull on the trigger...
Additionally, I'm not sure whether the manual safety can be applied when the pistol is in this manually de-cocked state? (if it could, would this then somehow work to prevent the hammer from being pulled back away from the firing pin or some such to prevent accidental 'hammer snag' firing? - though it would still be lacking any sort of drop safety as far as I know...)

My guess about this particular 'feature' of the pistol is that it is simply a 'hangover' from the fact that it is the same trigger system is used in variants of the pistol that are fitted with a de-cocker. Is that right, or is there something else that I'm missing?

EDIT: So one thing I came up with that i didn't think of initially, if you drop the hammer on a dud primer, you can just pull the trigger again for another whack at it. Probably not better than racking it for a new round instead, but still, is that the reason for it?

Cheers
 
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The answer is quite simple: Some people want redundancy.

I do think it is the worst of all types.
 
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The gun has always been designed that way 75/75b/shadow and even if you have a firing pin block u still have to pull the trigger to lower the hammer.

No the safety can't be engaged in DA on a stock gun tho if its in DA you don't need a safety.

This feature isn't a "hangover" the first model the 75 was designed this way and the later decokers were based around it.
 
I like DA/SA with manual safety, but I prefer to have a de-cocker with it (HK). I don't CCW, so if I slip a gun into my waistband when things go bump in the night I like having the hammer down, safety on.

Manual de-cocking definitely gets your attention as it should, even at the range it has a pucker factor, but if properly practiced it is safe.

I don't recall any CZs having a de-cocker, the basic 75B doesn't anyway.
 
It would be nice if the CZ safety doubled as a decocker, as in some offerings from other manufacturers. I'm not a big fan of manual decocking. I've thought about having my CZ 75B converted to SAO (can't get a stainless SAO from the factory.) But if I were going to carry a CZ, it would be a decocker model anyway.
 
The most basic decocker version would be the CZ 75 BD. I prefer to manually decock the hammer that might be strange but I trust my hand over a good mechanical device.
 
I don't know the real reason for the manual safety on the CZ75 series of pistols, and I don't think there is any official literature on the subject, but somebody on the forum postulated, and it made sense to me, that these guns are designed to be used as DA pistols. Insert a mag, rack the slide, and manually decock the hammer.

The manual safety is used for "maneuver". For instance, you have engaged a target with a few shots, but now must move to a different location. Rather than run with a pistol with a cocked hammer, and since it is probably somewhat dangerous to decock the gun "at speed", you simply push up the safety, which allows you to move with a gun in a safer condition. When the situation is over, and you are at "ground speed zero", you can safely, and carefully lower the hammer.

That many of us American's (who are used to 1911's) choose to use them as SA guns is just a side benefit of the design, though I don't think it was the original intent. If it was, they probably would have simply been designed as SA pistols.
 
I agree with the above. I personally don't like that system on CZs because it makes the reach to the DA trigger too long for me, and the safety lever is a little too far forward. I prefer the decocking lever system as on the P-01 (IIRC the first CZ to have it), 75BD and my own 75D Compact PCR. It lowers the hammer in a controlled manner to about one-third cocked, shortening the trigger reach and stroke.
 
JTQ said:
The manual safety is used for "maneuver". For instance, you have engaged a target with a few shots, but now must move to a different location. Rather than run with a pistol with a cocked hammer, and since it is probably somewhat dangerous to decock the gun "at speed", you simply push up the safety, which allows you to move with a gun in a safer condition. When the situation is over, and you are at "ground speed zero", you can safely, and carefully lower the hammer.
Click to expand...

This makes the most sense. I also would think the safety is for some militaries (like ours) that require a safety regardless of DA. Not sure about the history of the decocker, but the manual safety would be the next best option if you really did need to maneuver and don't need the focus of manually decocking.

I do have a CZ85 (sort of a transitional) that can have the safety set in DA mode. I just like the option of cocked and locked carry...

ROCK6
 
I don't know the real reason for the manual safety on the CZ75 series of pistols, and I don't think there is any official literature on the subject, but somebody on the forum postulated, and it made sense to me, that these guns are designed to be used as DA pistols. Insert a mag, rack the slide, and manually decock the hammer.
Click to expand...

Somebody on the forum was half-right: the first CZs were designed to start from either hammer down or cocked and locked, i.e., they were designed to be EITHER SA or DA guns; there was a DAO version available early on, but the LONG trigger pull of the design made that model unattractive to many folks. (I suspect you can still get one if you want one -- and a DA/SA version can easily be converted to DAO or SAO, if that's wanted. The CZ decocker versions are a much-later development. The half-cock notch is also a later development; my first pre-B CZ-75 did not have one; later ones did. And that's the position the hammer is dropped to in the CZs when they're decocked.

Why the safety?

Most don't realize it, but the CZ safety only works when the hammer is cocked -- so the safety is obviously there to allow a SAFE single-action start (i.e., cocked and locked). Some other DA/SA guns -- like the Tanfoglio/Witness near CZ near-copies -- have safeties that also function when the hammer is down.

ROCK6 -- if the safety on your 85 works when the hammer is down, there may be something that needs to be replaced. That is NOT typical behavior for a pre-B 85 (I've had one), and 85 Combat (which I have now, and which is, in effect, almost the same gun), or the 85B. I hear of this from time to time, and it generally means something is worn.
 
Having options is a good thing.

Since when is dropping a hammer so scary? It's really nothing. Just practice a bit.
Decockers are silly IMO.
I'd much rather trust myself than a mechanical device.

If it really bothers you then use a clearing barrel or carry it condition 1.
 
"The only use I see for it would be if you manually de-cocked it (i.e. lowered the hammer under your own control with the trigger depressed onto a loaded chamber)."


Right. That's how it's done.

Is there a question here? ;)


Willie

.
 
The CZ SPO1 (and versions of) is one of the most widely used pistols in IPSC pistol competition, world-wide.
Production/Stock class minor power factor pistols "must start with the hammer fully down", hence the DA first shot and what can be made an amazingly good SA trigger pull thereafter. The de-cocker is considered fully hammer down when decocked. It too can be made to have a very smooth clean SA trigger.

The saftied pistol offers the option of carrying in the half cock position like the Tactical decocker versions, but with a shorter pull to the drop. It can be also carried cocked and locked like a 45 with what can be a remarkable SA hammer break. It also has double-strike capability as does the de-cocker.
'
The decocker adds more mechanical actions actuated by the trigger pull but prevents having to lower the hammer manually to the half-cock position.
 
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Great information, thanks all!

I sort of assumed that you would only see DA on pistols that had a decocker, because most of the people I know seem to frown on manual decocking (for whatever reason) so I assumed the practice was not widely used, obviously I was wrong there :)

Personally I'm not overly concerned about the process, just keep the muzzle in a safe direction and pay due attention when doing it (same as most things firearm related). However, I'm still not clear on what (if anything) prevents accidental firing of a CZ 75 (a manual safety model) when it has been decocked to half cock?

From my understanding the manual safety models do not have a firing pin block, so to me that makes it plausible that the hammer could be caught, pulled back a bit and then slip free and fly forward to potentially hit the firing pin as there is no 'block' to prevent this. Similarly, if it is dropped straight on the hammer, what stops it firing? (I assume there is nothing in the manual safety mechanism to prevent this since Walt Sherril mentioned that it can't be applied when the pistol is not cocked - though what about at half cock?)

I'm guessing I'm just ignorant of the mechanism here and that there is something which prevents the above mentioned types of accidental discharge, is there something in how the hammer rests when in the half cock position that prevents this?
(Wish I had played around it with more when I had the chance to understand this myself, only realised that I hadn't really thought about the mechanism sufficently until I got back home from the range)

Thanks
 
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Okay, so most are built off the B variant, thanks for clarifying.

The one I shot was indeed the SP-01 Shadow, and that particular variant does not have the firing pin block as it turns out.
 
No Style said:
From my understanding the manual safety models do not have a firing pin block, so to me that makes it plausible that the hammer could be caught, pulled back a bit and then slip free and fly forward to potentially hit the firing pin as there is no 'block' to prevent this. Similarly, if it is dropped straight on the hammer, what stops it firing? (I assume there is nothing in the manual safety mechanism to prevent this since Walt Sherril mentioned that it can't be applied when the pistol is not cocked - though what about at half cock?)
Click to expand...

If everything is working properly, the safety should not engage when the hammer is in the half-cock position, either, but I've heard of it happening with some CZs. (But, if you're complicating things by making a safety release necessary before you can fire, it makes more sense to carry the gun fully-cocked, with the safety on: the trigger is lighter and the pull shorter.)

When the hammer is dropped from the half-cock position, the hammer won't have enough force behind it to overcome the firing pin spring in the inertial firing pin system. And, unless the trigger is pulled fully to the rear, the firing pin can't move to strike the primer.

While it may be possible to make the hammer fall while also releasing the firing pin, by timing the trigger pull and thumb release of the hammer just right, that particular "window" is almost microscopically small, and the force of the hammer may still be too little to ignite the primer.

If you practice the manual decocking process with a CZ just a bit, an accidental discharge is not going to happen. (Some folks put their offhand thumb between the hammer and firing pin while decocking, and that will certainly prevent an accident if the hammer is mistakenly released.)

You just don't hear about accidental/negligent discharges of CZs when lowering the hammer from the full-cock or half-cock positions -- and given the tendency of some of the folks who love to criticize CZs on these forums, I think we'd have heard about such problems long ago, if it were something to worry about.

Re: Shadow...

When you mentioned "Shadow" the conversation switched a bit into an "apples and oranges" type of discussion. The "Shadow" and several other CZs are produced by the CZ Custom Shop and are primarily intended for use in competition. They are unusual in that they have features not present on the standard CZs and may omit features that are. If you go to the CZ-USA site, you'll find the Shadow grouped with other guns intended for competition.

Guns in competition are used in a very strictly-controlled safety environment. The guns are loaded only when a shooter is on the line and ready to start the string of fire, and loaded while following the range officer's commands. The guns are similarly unloaded at the end of the string, again following a strict procedure and the range officer's instructions -- which includes showing the range officer that the steps have been followed and that the chamber is empty, and finally that the trigger has been pulled and the hammer is down.

Depending on the gun's internal design, a firing pin block can complicate the trigger pull. While a firing pin block can be used in these guns in competition, its presence is not as necessary as might be the case in other environments. If removing the FPB can improve the trigger -- and it can with the CZ design -- it is often removed.

Then, too, while guns like the Shadow can be used as a personal, concealed carry weapon, there are typically guns better suited to that role.
 
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Some of us just like the CZ set-up. I would like to have a combo de-cocker/safety like a Makarov, but have no worries about my pre-B 75 as I carry it with the hammer on half cock. If I had a B version I would carry it with the hammer all the way down, eased down by my thumb while pulling the trigger. I happen to like the Ruger P95 decocker only too. Just my preferences. Your point is a good one, but I doubt there will be a definitive answer to the question.
 
People have been lowering the hammer on guns manually for a LONG time. Just do it carefully and it's not the risk everyone makes it out to be.

The CZ's setup just gives you more options. Want to carry DA? Manually lower the hammer. SA? Cocked and locked.
 
astra600 said:
....
If I had a B version I would carry it with the hammer all the way down, eased down by my thumb while pulling the trigger. ....
Your point is a good one, but I doubt there will be a definitive answer to the question.
Click to expand...

Yeah, there is no definitive answer, but easing a hammer down with the thumb increases the risk of having an ND. When the thumb slips (due to oil on gun...sweaty hand) off she goes.

There are safer ways:
For instance, many rely on a 2 finger index & thumb pinch of the hammer, if the hammer is wide enough to grasp this way. Others pinch with the thumb and middle fingers, placing the index behind the hammer to block it if there is a slip.
 
twofifty said:
Yeah, there is no definitive answer, but easing a hammer down with the thumb increases the risk of having an ND. When the thumb slips (due to oil on gun...sweaty hand) off she goes.

There are safer ways:
For instance, many rely on a 2 finger index & thumb pinch of the hammer, if the hammer is wide enough to grasp this way. Others pinch with the thumb and middle fingers, placing the index behind the hammer to block it if there is a slip.
Click to expand...

I've tried all the different ways, and any 2-finger pinch I'd rank as far more dangerous than the thumb IMHO. Laying you thumb all the way across the spur is just more secure than the pinch - at least for me.

Take a heavy object and hold it up in the air pinching it with two fingers. For comparison, hang it with small hook off your straightened thumb. See which one you drop first.
 
Don't know the first thing about CZ pistols, but my FNX safety doubles as a decocker; and does it well.
 
If you go to the CZ website...

http://cz-usa.com/product-category/handguns/

You'll see that there are a number of options that CZ offer. Their traditional design (da/sa with the option of sa carry and use), guns that have de-cockers, single action guns and dao guns.

From their website:

Designed in 1975, the CZ 75 is the flagship model of the CZ handgun line with over one million produced. An entire family of pistols is available based on the basic CZ 75 design: compacts, decockers, single action only, ambidextrous, alloy frames as well as competition pistols.
Click to expand...

There are a number of sources available for the evolution of CZ's designs.

tipoc
 
I've tried all the different ways, and any 2-finger pinch I'd rank as far more dangerous than the thumb IMHO. Laying you thumb all the way across the spur is just more secure than the pinch - at least for me.
Click to expand...

You don't lay your thumb across the spur, you lay it on the hammer face between it and the slide, push down a bit to take the slack out of your flesh and pull the trigger the hammer barely moves but its off the sear (you should hear and/or feel the "click"). Then take your finger out of the trigger guard (to engage the firing pin block) and ease the thumb up out of the gap between the hammer and slide until the hammer is in the de-cock notch. This way there is nothing to ever "slip" and since you've taken up the slack at the start, the hammer never gets moving fast enough to do anything.

Easiest to start using the off-hand thumb, but once you get the hang of it, its pretty easy one handed with the firing hand.
 
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