Dallas Police Officer Shooting - .223 fails to penetrate vehicle

[Jeff White]

More Pics

One more of bullet resistant glass and two showing the deflection of rounds fired through glass.

 

[Jeff White]

115 grain 9mm ball through auto glass.

 

[Jeff White]

Note where the rounds hit with the target back from the glass.

More pics when I find them.

 

[Kimber1911_06238]

ballistic silvertips are for rapid expansion....fmj would have punched right through

 

[Lucky]

An officer died because they chose their ammunition poorly. I would hardly call that a success.

I'm under the impression that RIP Mr. Nix was basically ambushed, murdered, while approaching the car. Before the shootout. The ammunition is his department's rifles had nothing to do with anything. Am I wrong? I don't mean to push, but that's a pretty harsh statement to make, in any case, and by my understanding not accurate at all. Blaming anyone but the murderer for the murder is disingenuine, to be kind.

Have you seen their patrol rifle training program? I haven't...
What does their policy manual say about shooting at vehicles? I don't know. I haven't seen it. Have you

Good points, we just don't know. I was inferring based on the dept's released statements, but they may have been negligent in training, or playing CYA. We don't know.

The debate isn't about range, it's about penetration. Most police gunfights don't occur on rifle ranges or golf courses. They occur in urban areas or inside of structures. The chance of a round actually traveling far enough for gravity to pull it to the ground before it hits an intermediate barrier is pretty slim. What we are dealing with here is simple physics. Which is going to penetrate more and have the best chance of having enough mass left to injure someone after hitting an intermediate barrier?
...Again, I have to ask you, what urban area are you going to shoot 600 meters in? There are very few places where you are going to make a 600 meter shot even out in the countryside.

I think I see the misunderstanding here. My interpretation of the Dallas Dept's official policy was that they wanted to minimize likilihood of killing civilians with missed shots, shots that missed the target and continued on. So the 600m shot we're talking about is a shot that the shooter didnt' want to make. The Dallas P.D. specifically stated that SWAT can pick and use whatever ammunition they want, carte blanche. But patrol rifles are loaded with a cartridge/bullet combo designed to minimize bad things happening to good people when a rifle is fired and a crowded neighbourhood is the backstop.

So yes, I think you're thinking more about SWAT scenarios, not use of patrol rifles.

Is it your contention that a police department should only be armed with ammunition that is somehow deadly out to 25 meters yet harmless at 26 meters? It doesn't exist.

Again, it's the Dallas P.D.'s contention, though you're exaggerating a bit. And I'm starting to get suspicious that you're putting words in my mouth, tricking me into making political statements... high-road...

And again, that is basically the premise behind T.H.V. bullets, albeit exaggerated.

The police need to be armed with ammunition that meets their mission requirements.

Their mission requirements, or yours?

Or are you saying that the police shouldn't have rifles? Before you answer, remember where you are.

Again, it's not the tool, it's the USE of the tool. I cannot say that enough (which is fortunate, because it appears I will be needing to repeat it quite a bit more ).

 

[BullfrogKen]

Lucky said: Again, it's not the tool, it's the USE of the tool. I cannot say that enough (which is fortunate, because it appears I will be needing to repeat it quite a bit more ).

Lucky, take it with a grain of salt. We deal with fellows that decide to make political arguements here in S&T. If you didn't intend it, then its not applicable to you and don't take any offense.

Lucky said: The cartridge and rifle does what they set out for it to do. That is success, not failure.

I don't believe any department intends to issue its officers a rifle that won't penetrate a vehicle. That may be the practical effect of the choice in issued ammunition, and the result really isn't success. PLENTY of misguided, uninformed, silly decisions have been rendered by police management based on criteria other than what the officer really needs to have to survive such kinds of fights.

 

[psychophipps]

I think that this whole arguement can be fixed with the simple addition of police departments using the policeman's best friend. The bullets are guaranteed to stop on impact and collateral damage, taking into account proper targeting of the weapon, will be minimal with a good training program.

Just my opinion, of course...
Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

 

[Blackfork]

Tyler Shooting

Just a few notes about the Courthouse shooting in Tyler:

The gunman, Arroyo, used an SKS loaded with Soviet military ammo. He attacked the courthouse which was guarded by the Sheriffs depts lowest totem pole guys. He didn't suceed in entering, IF that was his intention. He did manage to find/kill his targets on the steps outside. He fired 73 rounds in and around the courthouse. His 7.62X39 ammo broke windows, penetrated a wood door, chipped marble, and concrete but seemed to me to do less damage than one would think. Bullets fired down the long hall of the courthouse broke glass out at one end but the same large glass entrance at the other end suffered no damage.

Arroyo was turned back by Sheriffs dept guards with pistols, plus a prosecutor (also pistol) who joined in and others. The courthouse guard held.

Arroyo broke off his attack when shot repeatedly by Mark Wilson, a CCL holder from his six oclock. Mark was using a .45acp Colt Commander with one mag of Winchester hollowpoints. Mark had the misfortune of picking Arroyo's truck as his firing point/cover. Arroyo ended what seemed like pointless wandering back and forth shooting at the courthouse and engaged Mark, killing him at less than 20 feet Mark was shot once side to side through the back torso below his shoulderblades which did not exit, then killed with a shot through the back of the head which exited as he lay prone, this shot being from no more than two feet away. Mark had two rounds left in his Colt.

Arroyo shot no holes in his own pickup, though he and Wilson shot point blank across the bed.

The policeman riding the front of the car, far from being a fool, had retrieved his AR shorty (red dot sight sighted in at 25 yards I think he told me), and responded to the shooting. He was riding the hood of the car around to the north of the square to cut off Arroyo, who early reports had said was escaping that direction on foot. As soon as information was received about Arroyo being in his car, he got in the unit and joined the chase, with his driver moving him to the front of the pack near Arroyos truck. This was not a high speed chase. This policeman's name is Rusty Jacks. There actually is a big grill on the front of Tyler PD cars, plenty of places to brace feet. Rusty told me he knew it looked silly, but he was having his driver move him as fast as possible to cut off the shooter.

Arroyo was followed up Gentry Parkway by Sheriff and Tyler police units. Police officers, by PD directive, are NOT allowed to fire FROM moving vehicles or AT moving vehicles. All personel followed procedure. Sheriffs dept personel MAY fire as they feel neccesary. A Sheriffs dept deputy, (Senior dept Lusk describes him as one of his "snakeaters", but I have forgotten his name, wasn't Noel Martin.) repeatedly rammed Arroyo's truck from behind and emptied his Sig 220 with hollowpoints into the back window, (left handed), firing out his drivers side window and hitting the back of the truck and back window nine of nine behind and around Arroyos head area. Arroyo suffered grazes but no direct hits. The front truck window was unbroken. Arroyo braked to a stop and dismounted. The sheriffs deputy, Sig empty, pulled away, circled and used his car to (gently) ram-stop the rolling truck.

At the same time that Arroyo dismounted, Jacks driver stopped to the nine oclock. Jacks dismounted and fired twice with M855. Rusty said he was shooting at Arroyos head. One round was never found, the other penetrated the sheet metal curved corner of the truck cab and shed it's jacket. Emerging, the core of the bullet hit Arroyo in the head, lethally felling him. Arroyo had fired at least twice as Jacks fired, his bullet hit the lightbar in the end over Jacks drivers head, the rest went into the neighborhood.

Sorry, hope this doesn't hijack the thread. This account may contain information about weapons/ammo/penetration/tactics used by the various actors and units involved and shed further light on this discussion. If not, Jeff will know where to stick it.

 

[fast eddie]

Only fragments came through and did merely superficial damage to the suspect. In fact, it was police handgun rounds fired at the suspect, particularly 357SIG, that did penetrate and subsequently wounded him severely enough to persuade him to stop fighting.

The 38 super and 357 magnum were developed 75 years ago primarily so law enforcement could penetrate automobiles. The 357SIG is a rimless .357 magnum. It's amazing that all these years later it's still the most effective round in the police arsenal for this purpose. Perhaps more police departments should adopt this cartridge.

 

[Archer1945]

Even ordinary glass when placed at an angle can do some surprising things to objects hitting it without breaking. Windshield glass is anything but ordinary. It is a special tempered glass to start with and then has a special plastic laminated in between two sheets of the stuff. Add to that it can be installed at almost any angle from almost vertical to fairly extreme slants and you have a surface that can deflect almost anything short of a very high powered rifle. Even then you'd probably have to use a solid bullet which means you have to be very sure of where that bullet will travel after it goes through the windshield.

If I were an LEO who had to use a 5.56 to try and stop a vehicle in which the BG was shooting I try to either get as close to a 90 degree side shot as possible at the vehicle or through the rear window. Any kind of shot with much deflection is probably going to deflect off either the glass or the body. A .308 would have a better chance of penetrating but then you have the problem of two much penetration plus most .308s have a tendency to be rather large and heavy, except in SOCOM versions and I can just imagine the noise the antis would have over the police using such an "evil looking weapon".

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Just a few notes about the Courthouse shooting in Tyler:

The gunman, Arroyo, used an SKS loaded with Soviet military ammo. He attacked the courthouse which was guarded by the Sheriffs depts lowest totem pole guys. He didn't suceed in entering, IF that was his intention. He did manage to find/kill his targets on the steps outside.

Arroyo was turned back by Sheriffs dept guards with pistols, plus a prosecutor (also pistol) who joined in and others. The courthouse guard held.

Let's see, Arroyo did attack the courthouse, but not as claimed. He attacked his ex-wife and son who were OUTSIDE the courthosue. There is no indication he ever tried to enter the courthouse. He did shoot toward the courthouse, primarily in trying to shoot deputies and other LEOs who attempted to intervene, most of whom came from the courthouse itself. The courthouse guard might have held, but then again, it held against a person not attempting to enter it.

The policeman riding the front of the car, far from being a fool, had retrieved his AR shorty (red dot sight sighted in at 25 yards I think he told me), and responded to the shooting.

Riding on the hood of a car when entering a gun battle isn't exactly considered nominal or proper procedure as he was in an exposed position and in no way able to aim and shoot his Colt Commando AR15 while dealing with any of the lateral g-forces he would have encountered had the officer driving attempted to swerve or struck a solid object. As for being sighted in at 25 yards, that is fairly standard and gives point blank results at 25 yards and somewhere between about 175 to 300 yards depending on ammo, velocity, sight over barrel, etc., but this is a fairly optimal setting for general application.

As for being smart and grabbing his rifle, sure enough. Then again, he was back at the station with his rifle when the call came.

At the same time that Arroyo dismounted, Jacks driver stopped to the nine oclock. Jacks dismounted and fired twice with M855.

No, Rusty Jack's driver did not stop to the nine o'clock. He stopped somewhere behind Arroyo, somewhere around the five or six o'clock position. Had they stopped at the nine o'clock position to Arroyo, that would have put Arroyo at their three o'clock position relative to them. That would put Arroyo directly to their right. If Arroyo was at their nine o'clock position, that would have put him to their left. As seen in the video, Rusty did not fire on Arroyo from nine or three o'clock.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSfonVseeeI

 

[NMshooter]

Considering how poorly all handgun bullets fare against vehicle windshields I would certainly prefer a shoulder weapon of some sort.

.308 is simply not acceptable for general police work, other than snipers I have only heard of a few rural officers carrying personally owned weapons in that caliber.

12 ga. slugs are effective against vehicles, and are available for many officers. Not as accurate as a .223 carbine, however...

Most departments mandate a 55gr. JSP out of fear of over penetration. Personally M193 would seem to be a good choice, but I am not a police officer.

Sometimes you just have to take what you are allowed to use and do the best you can with it.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Unfortunately, in American law enforcement, we get into a lots of our gunfights in and around cars. Most pistol rounds do a poor job of penetrating car doors. Buckshot from a shotgun does not penetrate car doors either. Slugs

from a shotgun do penetrate, but most police shotguns are not routinely equipped with them. Rifles were supposed to address this issue, but, as we see, light, frail, crumbly bullets, at any speed, fail to penetrate car doors, even car glass.

Bold face is mine. Obviously, Farnum was not in on the policy process for Dallas PD when it came to the topic of allowing qualified officers to carry AR15s and just what issues the AR15s and their corresponding ammo were supposed to be used to address.

I don't know for certain, but would be willing to bet that that rounds selected for DPD were selected for specific purposes and I would be willing to be that the purposes were not for penetrating car doors and glass. As I recall from the news accounts of the decision process on the matter, issuing AR15s was a matter in response to dealing with bad guys with rifles, specifically fully automatic rifles such as happened in North Hollywood, CA and Richardson, TX, and to deal with bad guys wearing body armor. The platform and ammo chosen are sufficient for those tasks.

 

[nemoaz]

Wow. I somehow missed that Tyler video. Gotta wonder if that officer still practices the ride-to-the-scene-on-the-hood method. You don't see that taught anymore.
"Heck, no, I don't want to ride inside. The engine block and body may shield me to some extent in there... and there's no chance of me getting thrown off and runover by some other cops who isn't expecting an idiot to be riding on the hood." Maybe the windows in his ride don't roll down or something and he assumed they all are that way.

Frankly, if an officer asked to ride on the hood of my car, I'd tell him no without hesitation. I'll bet he still gets poster-sized pictures of that stuck on his locker from time to time. A picture of him on the hood is even on wikipedia.

Anyway, nice shot once he got the chance. That it look like only a portion of his head was exposed once the dirtbag decided to re-enter his truck (to flee again? reload?).

The BG's response, coming out shooting, isn't exactly uncommon. Every time I see that, I wonder why the closest unit (on the driver's side) doesn't just ram the SOB. 4500 lbs of stopping power. Saw someone just ram the guy on a police video a while back, but most people do a panic stop (often disorienting themselves and throwing there gear everywhere) often leaving themselves in no mans land. Then get into a pistol fight... with a guy with a rifle.

The deputy who fired on the truck then rammed it was lucky that the other guys put some lead down range before the Sarge's day ended in a rather impolite manner.

fail to penetrate car doors, even car glass.

The laminated front windshield of a vehicle is almost always going to be more difficult to penetrate than the 1/32 of sheet metal on the doors.

 

[outerlimit]

I think the Winchester Silvertip is one of the worst rounds ever made. In any caliber. And this is from somebody who almost always shoots Winchester in his guns whether it be Whitebox target ammo, Ranger , Power Point, Shotgun shells or any other great round Winchester makes..

 

[Phyphor]

You know....

...it just completely amazes me.

One moment, we have the Cult of X caliber/make/whatnot round claiming that it is the One True Round that'll practically work in all situations, then along comes someone showing that in some situations, it won't. Immediately thereafter, we have folks chiming in with "It's a crappy round! Good for nuthin'"

The silvertips mentioned in the OP were designed to drop a human with minimum risk of overpenetrating and endangering others, AFAIK. They weren't meant to penetrate hard cover. There's rounds designed for that, but how many cops are going to carry different ammo types for different situations? And how many could, in a firefight/oh s*it situation, figure out just what ammo type they needed RIGHT NOW, and if it's not currently in the weapon, change it out?

They could maybe mix and match it in the magazine in the current weapon, but that's a disaster waiting to happen.

I'm thinking there's no such thing as a one-shot-kills-all bullet smaller than a .50, and even *THAT'S* not a guarantee.

 

[outerlimit]

Phyphor,

I'm not sure if any of your post applies to my comments, but I do believe the Silvertip is a poor round in any caliber, handgun or otherwise. I would not use it to stop anyone quick or to penetrate anything.

It does not really matter to me what anyone else uses, Military or civilian, but I know what I use and it ain't Silvertips.

I'm certainly not suggesting changing out rounds in the heat of the moment for different situations, that would obviously be ridiculous.

 

[Lucky]

Is it more responisible to fire 50+ rounds of less effective ammuniton in a shootout when 5 rounds of "specially-designed penetrating ammunition" could stop the same threat?

Wow, that's food for thought. This guy was behind a windshield, the guy in Tyler wore ballistic vests, what if the next lunatic shooter is wearing level III ballistic armour!? The only solution is for every patrol officer to carry a 40mm GL, after all a couple misses with HEDP rounds is insignificant compared to hundreds of pistol bullets fired at the same target! Infallible logic, I tell you!!11!111one

This is the Strategies and Tactics Forum and the only acceptable discussion is one of the actual capabilities of a rifle vs. whatever you suggest.

>>>

 

[Phyphor]

Phyphor,

I'm not sure if any of your post applies to my comments, but I do believe the Silvertip is a poor round in any caliber, handgun or otherwise. I would not use it to stop anyone quick or to penetrate anything.

It does not really matter to me what anyone else uses, Military or civilian, but I know what I use and it ain't Silvertips.

I'm certainly not suggesting changing out rounds in the heat of the moment for different situations, that would obviously be ridiculous.

Not so much your comments, specifically, I was just observing a pattern I've noticed over, well, the whole time I've been on the net.

The problem is, there's no such thing as a round that does everything you want. If it penetrates hard cover (walls, car doors, boat hulls, etc,) it's probably gonna zip right through a human. If it stops inside a human, it's probably not gonna go through hard cover worth a damn. You'd need something like the OICW's programmable grenades to cover all bases (and obviously, that program got pretty much canned in favor of stuff that's more easily do-able.)

But, as I said, I've seen some folks worship at the altar of a specific round, and then when it's shown it won't work in all situations, others pile right on.

 

[Jeff White]

Phyphor,
No round does everything. However, considering that police officers have many confrontations in and around motor vehicles, they need to be armed with a weapon that allows some effectiveness in that environment. It's not practical to carry different ammunition and load up for every different threat you might face.



Lucky,
If you don't like the way things are run here in S&T, no one forces you to click on the link to this forum......

Jeff

 

[Phyphor]

Jeff,

I understand that completely.

Maybe they could toss a rifle & a shotgun in the trunk? Along with whatever ammo carrying rigs they needed? Or would that be too un-PC for the sheeple?

(I know budgetary issues would rear their ugly heads, but hell, don't they always?)

 

[Lucky]

I'm thinking of the tremendously irresponsible implications of using civilian residences as a backstop for ammunition chosen for extensive penetrating ability. IOW actual reality versus whatever you suggest.

And on top of that, as several people have said, if there was an instant switch to armour-piercing bullets people would be complaining that they don't have enough terminal effect. You KNOW that would happen, "Well the BG kept shooting back because the department chose bullets that don't expand or fragment."

 

[nemoaz]

Well, if they'd just choose a .308 or .45/70 and use special magic bullets, they'd be able to shoot through vehicles but not shoot through twenty seven residences.

 

[Jeff White]

Lucky said;

I'm thinking of the tremendously irresponsible implications of using civilian residences as a backstop for ammunition chosen for extensive penetrating ability. IOW actual reality versus whatever you suggest.

First off, no one in this thread has suggested that anyone use civilian residences for a backstop.

Secondly, there is only one armor piercing 5.56mm round that I know of and that is M995 ammunition that was accepted into the US military supply system to give the M249 SAW better effectiveness against soft skinned vehicles. M995 is not available to anyone civilian or law enforcement. It is only available to the US military and it only comes linked for use with the M249. It is rare to encounter it even in the military because of the expense. If you know of any other armor piercing 5.56 then tell us about it.

I suggest that you read this link (which I posted in post #39) before you post again, so that you may be informed enough to participate in this discussion.

Jeff

 

[sm]

Jeff,

Forgive me if I missed it-
Distances the 12 ga slug [Brenneke' I noticed ] and 9mm 115 gr FMJ please.

I too have shot various glass, like vehicular (windshield, back glass, widow glass. both into and out of) , "resistant" as used in cages, one way bullet resistant "mirror" and regular "one way mirror.

Our tests included 12 ga and 20 ga plain lead HP slugs.
Fired from bone stock shotguns with longer barrels and from shorter rifle sighted barrels like one find with "Combo" shotguns. [long and short smooth bore barrels.

Tidbit: The door from a '52 Chevy is a bit more resistant to 12/20 ga slugs and 9mm FMJ that the door off a Datsun Pickup truck...
Still punches through ...just a "wee bit" more door to punch through.

Meaning, one can go through both sides of a Datsun Pickup truck...both doors! *yikes*

Everyone should test loads for themselves, not only to see how loads perform (bullet construction and all) also deflection.

My/our tests...yeah even the slugs are "off a bit" on POA and POI.

Great pics, great information to be gleaned from this thread.

Steve