FBI; Shot placement is everything in a gunfight

[SwissArmyDad]

Was reading a report, Warp, about a homeowner who popped a armed perp after he had broken into his house. The perp fired a shot over the homeowners head, who had taken a knee to aim his AR15 down the hallway. The homeowner shot the perp once in the abdomen and possibly a second time in the shoulder, and the perp ran away only to be picked up later by cops.

The homeowner stopped the threat because the perp chose to run away. If he had chose to fight, I think things might have turned out differently...

Believe me, I'm not an AR hater. I built my own out of quality parts, and I'm big 12ga fan. Personally I keep a XD in 9mm loaded with Golden sabre's for bump in the night duties, though I've been re-evaluating the use of .223 or 12ga for defense duties.

 

[Warp]

Was reading a report, Warp, about a homeowner who popped a armed perp after he had broken into his house. The perp fired a shot over the homeowners head, who had taken a knee to aim his AR15 down the hallway. The homeowner shot the perp once in the abdomen and possibly a second time in the shoulder, and the perp ran away only to be picked up later by cops.

The homeowner stopped the threat because the perp chose to run away. If he had chose to fight, I think things might have turned out differently...

Believe me, I'm not an AR hater. I built my own out of quality parts, and I'm big 12ga fan. Personally I keep a XD in 9mm loaded with Golden sabre's for bump in the night duties, though I've been re-evaluating the use of .223 or 12ga for defense duties.

A shot to the abdomen and "possibly a second time in the shoulder" certainly isn't what you want for [physically] stopping an attacker. No matter what firearm you are using.

Many attackers are stopped because they choose to stop when a firearm is presented, or when a firearm is discharged, or when they are shot. Not uncommon at all. Again, regardless of the firearm being used.

There's nothing wrong with a 12 gauge/buckshot for home defense. That was my go-to for HD for a long time. And I still have it accessible.

There are a lot of advantages to a carbine in 5.56 though. Much less recoil, quicker follow up shots, more potential for accuracy/precision/range, soft armour turns to swiss cheese, etc.

I don't suppose the example you are referencing was using typical bulk FMJ ammunition?

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

The homeowner stopped the threat because the perp chose to run away. If he had chose to fight, I think things might have turned out differently...

Yeah, so? I sat watch on a guy in ER once who was missing half his lower jaw because his girlfriend got made and shot him in the face point blank with a 12 gauge. He was a walk in.

I can tell odd GSW stories all day if we want to pick and choose one off events to cast a better light on our particular choice of firearm.

 

[Jeff White]

People are hard to stop and nothing short of a flechette round from a 90 mm recoil less rifle guarantees a one shot stop.

History is full of examples of people who sustained multiple wounds that should have been disabling form military weapons yet continued to fight. Why do some people drop dead with one hit from a .25 acp and others absorb what seems like impossible damage from large caliber high velocity weapons? No one knows, but it's a fact that it happens.

There are two ways of quickly shutting down the human body. One is a central nervous system hit. Easy to say, hard to do as the body is designed to protect the two places that will instantly shut down the CNS, making them difficult targets.

The second way is cut off blood flow, hence oxygen to the brain. This is best accomplished by hitting the blood rich internal organs and causing blood pressure to drop rapidly from loss of blood.

Shot placement and penetration are the critical things here. Caliber has little to do with it. You need a round that will penetrate deeply enough to reach the vital organs from any angle. It may only be a couple inches to the heart/lungs in a straight shot to the torso but you will need significantly more penetration from the side, especially if you have to shoot through a bicep or forearm before your bullet even gets to the torso.

There are no magic bullets,caliber or weapons. And unlike in the movies, human beings can be incredibly hard to disable.

 

[freewheeling]

I remember putting down an opossum that the dog had attacked and had a spine injury. It took me six 9mm rounds, the first two of which were fragmenting. This was from about 2 feet. I now follow Gibb's rule and always carry a knife, and I've noticed that the knife is always sharper than the bullet.

 

[wendellgj]

Practice

Fortunately my wife and I had a very good teacher. He was trained by Jeff Cooper, NRA certified, and had been through every other training camp that appears to promote good self defense morals and practices if found in a situation of eminent death to your family or self. We practiced head to head with others many times against law officers, store keepers, lawyers, house wife's, and every individual across the board you can imagine. Accuracy was paramount and my family use 45acp just because that is what fits. Double tap was paramount to the central nervous system. From there on to the next threat and so on with up to 500 rds. / day with several different practice situations but always against a timer and usually another human being. Also the type of carry leather and extra clip storage is just as important to know how to use along with clearing malfunctions. I cannot express my concern for individuals to get out and practice if they are really serious. Plus it is a lifetime experience they can pass on for generations of patriots to come. The only way to prevent accidents and also possibly learn the fine art of reloading ammunition.

 

[JustinJ]

Shot placement is the key, huh? Well I suppose I'll just start carrying a .22 and shoot any attackers in the eye, instantly debilitating their brain. Seriously though, I think its naively optimistic to think in a gunfight one will be able to ensure ideal "shot placement". If it comes down to it, obviously one should aim for center mass and hope to hit something vital but relying on such alone, rather than intelligent ammo selection, is not practical. There may be some seasoned gun fighters out there with the skills and experience to expect ideal "shot placement" but for us mere mortals, every practical advantage should be sought.

 

[wendellgj]

We always practice body mass shots at zero tolerance range or whenever it is not practical to take the head shots. You see so many examples of people getting hurt by these individuals all shot up until taken down by extreme measures. We happened to get a trainer who was trained by the folks that definitely never wanted to see a wounded criminal carry on to hurt more innocent people. Thank you for your comments.

 

[Warp]

Shot placement is the key, huh?

Yes, it is.

obviously one should aim for center mass and hope to hit something vital but relying on such alone, rather than intelligent ammo selection, is not practical.

Whoa whoa whoa, who said anything about ignoring ammo selection?

There may be some seasoned gun fighters out there with the skills and experience to expect ideal "shot placement" but for us mere mortals, every practical advantage should be sought.

Sure, but shot placement is still the most important thing. The place to start when looking for practical advantages is with things that can improve your shot placement. Provided you have a firearm that is functional and reliable, of course.

 

[Hunter2011]

I really cannot believe how some people can take so many rounds, and that rifle rounds, and still fight.
I believe I will go down with just 1 solid hit with a .22LR. The human body are truly amazing.

 

[JustinJ]

Whoa whoa whoa, who said anything about ignoring ammo selection?

The OP: "Shot placement is everything in a gunfight".

Sure, but shot placement is still the most important thing. The place to start when looking for practical advantages is with things that can improve your shot placement. Provided you have a firearm that is functional and reliable, of course.

One aims for the center mass and hopes for the best but there are countless videos of attackers taking multiple shots in the chest with no immediate effect. The more rounds one can deliver to the target, and the more damage those rounds do, the better. There is no single "everything" or "key" to gunfights, from my limited perspective.

 

[Warp]

One aims for the center mass and hopes for the best but there are countless videos of attackers taking multiple shots in the chest with no immediate effect. The more rounds one can deliver to the target, and the more damage those rounds do, the better. There is no single "everything" or "key" to gunfights, from my limited perspective.

Sure, but shot placement is still the most important thing. The place to start when looking for practical advantages is with things that can improve your shot placement. Provided you have a firearm that is functional and reliable, of course.

To add to that...if they are taking rounds to the upper chest without stopping, then even more precise shot placement to the pelvis or cranial vault may be in order.

I never said nor implied there was one single "everything" or "key". I said shot placement is still the most important thing. Because it is.

 

[JustinJ]

To add to that...if they are taking rounds to the upper chest without stopping, then even more precise shot placement to the pelvis or cranial vault may be in order.

From the videos I've seen and accounts I've read, when civilians use guns in self defense things happen way too fast for such to occur. Compound that with the adrenaline, such is just not realistic. Civilians don't get in long, protracted Hollywood Bank robber shoot outs. Its generally, "pop, pop, pop...what just happened?".

I never said nor implied there was one single "everything" or "key". I said shot placement is still the most important thing. Because it is.

I wasn't implying that you did. Of course we all know to aim for center mass. The phrase "shot placement" though is thrown around like its just that easy. Check out any caliber debate thread and eventually somebody will chime in about "shot placement" as though they just settled things.

 

[george burns]

What does this say for people with 5 shot revolvers, or low caliber guns? Should there be a minimum suggested amount and caliber that one should carry. Perhaps a 45 or 357, would be a better stopper because it makes a larger hole than the 40, or 9mm, ? I am curious if this changed anyone's thought process on what they are packing.
With gun company's making such compact guns these days are we better off with the guns of 20 yrs ago? a larger longer barreled pistol?
Did the ski jacket act like a Kevlar simulated material, was it perhaps because it was stuffed with some material that actually helped stop or slow down the rounds? Probably things we will never know.
Hollow points can act funny if they meet too much resistance before hitting flesh and bone, maybe they opened too soon, and it cut down their effectiveness because of the layers of clothing?

 

[Warp]

From the videos I've seen and accounts I've read, when civilians use guns in self defense things happen way too fast for such to occur. Compound that with the adrenaline, such is just not realistic. Civilians don't get in long, protracted Hollywood Bank robber shoot outs. Its generally, "pop, pop, pop...what just happened?".

It need not be long and protracted for start shooting for the pelvis.

But anyway...what do you suggest as being more important than shot placement? So you are shooting somebody COM multiple times with your .45 ACP JHP's and they aren't going down. What's the answer to that problem?

I wasn't implying that you did. Of course we all know to aim for center mass. The phrase "shot placement" though is thrown around like its just that easy. Check out any caliber debate thread and eventually somebody will chime in about "shot placement" as though they just settled things.

No.

Simple =/= easy.

Shot placement is king. That much is simple. NO, it isn't easy, not at all. But it is that simple. Especially when talking handgun cartridges in handguns. Shot placement is easily the top factor. Followed by penetration.

 

[JustinJ]

But anyway...what do you suggest as being more important than shot placement? So you are shooting somebody COM multiple times with your .45 ACP JHP's and they aren't going down. What's the answer to that problem?

The point is that in such a situation there is not time to decide to change targets. I'm talking about what is practical, not what is ideal. Most likely one is going to just keep shooting at center mass until they either run out of bullets or the threat stops. Hitting the head would actually be best to begin with. However, in trying to do so one drastically reduces hit probability so we are taught to aim for center mass.

I'm not downplaying the importance of shot placement but I don't think it so easy to quantify the relative importance of different aspects of gun fights. For example, a hit to the arm actually could be of more value than a hit to the chest if it immediately disables the attackers ability to operate his weapon. Also, I'm laser accurate with my ruger 22/45 but the increased chance of ideal shot placement it offers does not overcome the shortcomings of the round. Going down to a 9mm from .40, on the other hand, may be a wiser choice if it increases the likelihood of ideal shot placement in spite of reduced wound potential.

 

[Warp]

The point is that in such a situation there is not time to decide to change targets.

It's called a failure to stop drill, and plenty of people/departments/agencies/trainers use it.

I'm talking about what is practical, not what is ideal. Most likely one is going to just keep shooting at center mass until they either run out of bullets or the threat stops.

That may not work. They might be wearing concealable soft armour, or they might be so motivated or so high on drugs that handgun rounds COM won't stop them in time.

Of course, anything might not work, nothing is guaranteed...but a CNS or pelvic shot is certainly something to have in your training/preparation toolbox.

Hitting the head would actually be best to begin with. However, in trying to do so one drastically reduces hit probability so we are taught to aim for center mass.

Yes. Well, I like high center mass, as in upper torso, not just center mass...gut shots aren't great. But same principle and almost the same thing.

And why the pelvis is very arguably a better alternative than a headshot. Larger target that doesn't move nearly as much as the head, typically, and it is also surrounded by more of the attacker to hit if you "miss" (torso, legs)

I'm not downplaying the importance of shot placement but I don't think it so easy to quantify the relative importance of different aspects of gun fights.

Shot placement is king.

For example, a hit to the arm actually could be of more value than a hit to the chest if it immediately disables the attackers ability to operate his weapon.

You just described why on particular shot placement might be better than another particular shot placement. You just proved my point, the biggest factor (the only one you even listed) between the two shots you gave was...shot placement.

Also, I'm laser accurate with my ruger 22/45 but the increased chance of ideal shot placement it offers does not overcome the shortcomings of the round. Going down to a 9mm from .40, on the other hand, may be a wiser choice if it increases the likelihood of ideal shot placement in spite of reduced wound potential.

Shot placement isn't the ONLY thing. You do need a reliable firearm, and if possible you want something with adequate penetration. So long as you can make hits with the more powerful firearm that offers adequate penetration, it is the better choice...because penetration is still queen.

 

[lemaymiami]

I won't attempt to speak to the various schools of thought regarding the importance of placement or penetration in real life or death armed conflicts... both sides have their points of view and there's something to be said for each.

My own experiences on the street (only one shooting in 22 years there) was over so quickly that I didn't even remember to rack the shotgun for a second shot until I had advanced twenty or thirty feet towards my opponent, who was down and dying. What I did see and encounter over and over again on the street is how wildly variable the actual results of gunshots were in the real world. In some cases the individual being shot was immediately incapacitated by a minor flesh wound in others a killing shot didn't prevent the injured individual from completing violent and strenuous actions before succumbing to their wounds (including one victim that was actually stabbed in the heart while in bed - then jumped up and ran down the street a full block before dying....). The folks on the receiving end of gunshots ranged from bad guys to good guys, from higly skilled to completely un-trained (on both sides of the equation). I've also seen actual autopsy results where highly touted hollow point handgun bullets failed to expand in any way at all in actual use...

As a result of the above I did reach a few conclusions that helped take me through my police years (in a time when Miami and nearby areas were in a lot of action continuously, 1973 to 1995). Firstly, the results of armed encounters, whether shots were fired or not, were so random that you should do everything possible to avoid them unless you had absolutely no other choice... and that's still pretty good advice today from where I stand. Second, if you're going to be an armed citizen or work in a job like policing where you're going to be thrust into situations that ordinary folks would avoid, then you'd better be properly equipped and properly trained. That meant that halfway through my police career I quit carrying an "off duty gun" or anything less than what I carried at work. I actually made a point for more than ten years of always carrying my duty weapon as my "off duty" piece. An armed confrontation with a five shot or snub nosed weapon is just folly... if it's ever actually needed.

Lastly a handgun is what you use because you didn't have anything better. Any time I responded to a call involving weapons or violent felons I learned to always bring a shotgun and extra rounds. If I worked in the countryside that shotgun would be traded in for a rifle, period. Can't remember how many times I was pointng a pistol at close quarters at someone who totally ignored any commands or threats on my part. No one ever ignores a shotgun at close quarters, period. I'm convinced that using it properly on the street prevented gunplay on more than one occasion...

 

[JustinJ]

You just described why on particular shot placement might be better than another particular shot placement. You just proved my point, the biggest factor (the only one you even listed) between the two shots you gave was...shot placement.

No I didn't. I described how a shot can be effective even if the intended area is missed. We're talking about shooting at a rapidly moving target that is shooting back. Planning to aim for the head or arm is not a wise choice for anybody but the mostly highly trained, experienced and proficient.

It's called a failure to stop drill, and plenty of people/departments/agencies/trainers use it.

That may be, but it still doesn't make it practical for the level of training all but a very small minority of people engage in. As I said, there are tons of videos and written accounts of gunfights available and they always happen at break neck speed. Rarely do the actors even know how many rounds they expended after the fact.

Either way, i don't see the pelvis as a wise alternative target. It may be possible to disable function of the legs but immediate incapacitation is not going to occur outside of psychological reaction to a pelvis shot. Major arteries are present but even if severed the amount of time necessary for sufficient blood loss to result in incapacitation is still substantial, relatively speaking.

 

[Warp]

No I didn't. I described how a shot can be effective even if the intended area is missed. We're talking about shooting at a rapidly moving target that is shooting back. Planning to aim for the head or arm is not a wise choice for anybody but the mostly highly trained, experienced and proficient.

So you described how you could get lucky and happen upon a shot placement that works better than what you aimed at.

That may be, but it still doesn't make it practical for the level of training all but a very small minority of people engage in. As I said, there are tons of videos and written accounts of gunfights available and they always happen at break neck speed. Rarely do the actors even know how many rounds they expended after the fact.

Either way, i don't see the pelvis as a wise alternative target. It may be possible to disable function of the legs but immediate incapacitation is not going to occur outside of psychological reaction to a pelvis shot. Major arteries are present but even if severed the amount of time necessary for sufficient blood loss to result in incapacitation is still substantial, relatively speaking.

If COM isn't working, what is your alternative target?

If you take out a person's pelvis, they are most likely going down.

 

[Jeff22]

A couple of good observations from Lemaymiami:

"The results of armed encounters, whether shots were fired or not, are so random that you should do everything possible to avoid them unless you have absolutely no other choice... and that's still pretty good advice today from where I stand."

and

"A handgun is what you use because you didn't have anything better... Can't remember how many times I was pointng a pistol at close quarters at someone who totally ignored any commands or threats on my part."

I've worked in jurisdictions that were MUCH quieter than Miami, and still I have observed that a bunch of times. You have somebody at gunpoint and are issuing verbal commands and they totally ignore you. Maybe they're on drugs, maybe they're drunk, maybe they're really mad, maybe they are just experiencing stress-induced auditory exclusion (VERY common). Whatever. It's very dis-heartening when you're a young cop and you have drawn down on somebody and they totally ignore you . . .

One thing to remember about a gunfight: You can be well trained & experienced & equiped with a quality firearm loaded with high performance ammunition and you can do everything right and still lose . . .

 

[Blackstone]

I'm struggling a little to interpret what was erroneous and what is correct.

Is it the statement that all rounds penetrated less than 1"? This later conflicts with the "fact" that the .40 rounds will not expand with less than 1" of penetration. Does that mean the ME was wrong about how deep the rounds went? The ME also stated the .223's caused massive internal damage, is this true?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

If COM isn't working, what is your alternative target?

If you take out a person's pelvis, they are most likely going down.

The majority of the pelvis is the iliac blade on each side. It is not necessary to be intact for locomotion. If you have already shot COM and the person isn't going down, hitting the iliac blade without involvement of the acetabulum (socket) isn't likely to produce a better result. Additionally, to "take out the pelvis" is pretty tricky with handgun ammo. Notice the pelvis area shots in the OP's study that did NOT take out the pelvis, though the .223 finally did. In short, most people haven't a clue as to where to shoot to "take out the pelvis" with a handgun on a dynamic target. At best they will just blast away at the lower portion of the body.

Most people do not stop from handgun shots because of being incapacitated (physiological) but because of psychological responses.

Is it the statement that all rounds penetrated less than 1"? This later conflicts with the "fact" that the .40 rounds will not expand with less than 1" of penetration. Does that mean the ME was wrong about how deep the rounds went? The ME also stated the .223's caused massive internal damage, is this true?

The ME messed up a lot of stuff in the report, such as the depth of the rounds and the lack of expansion.

 

[Warp]

*long winded reply saying you have no alternative, just more to COM*

I have always liked the saying that the definition of insanity is repeating the same thing and expecting a different result.

 

[george burns]

I think it's a crap shoot. If you are both moving , you will be lucky to hit the other guy or guys without being shot yourself. You take what you can get, and hope they get panicked enough to leave.
Unless you are a real gunfighter who can hit a melon sized object while running for cover.