Dance and brothers revolver chain fire

[Russell13]

I have a question
What would happen if a Dance and brothers revolver chain fired? Would it blow off the cap and shoot flame and powder back at your hand ? I’ve never heard of this happening and was wondering if anyone had any info on it

 

[MEHavey]

Google < 1860 army chainfire youtube > and look at numerous videos.
More of an unpleasant surprise than anything else.

 

[arcticap]

I have a question
What would happen if a Dance and brothers revolver chain fired? Would it blow off the cap and shoot flame and powder back at your hand ? I’ve never heard of this happening and was wondering if anyone had any info on it

Here's a thread titled: When you experience a chain fire on a BP revolver what's it like? --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...n-fire-on-a-bp-revolver-whats-it-like.823861/

 

[Russell13]

I wondering about not having the shield behind the caps. Wouldn’t that make powder and fire shoot back at your hand

 

[skeeterfogger]

Other than quite a surprise nothing much. Once had a ball stuck in behind the ram but it pushed out easy. Causes typically are too small diameter projectile. Another cause is ill fitting primer getting hot gas under it. 1860 typically uses #10. Good thumb pressure should seat them fine.
Extreme could be crack in cylinder between chambers or a defect in cylinder bore that a rammed projectile doesn't seal. First would result in same chambers firing each time with a possible third. Second would fire Same one cylinder plus one unless the defective one was fired first.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

J. H. Dance & Brothers revolver is a Civil War South copy of the Colt Dragoon.
It has a flat frame without a recoil shield which made it easy to manufacture.
Aim it, you have four bright shiny percussion caps pointed your way.
It is a cool Civil War replica.
Not sure I'd have the nerve to shoot it.

edited: well, if I were being charged by cavalry with drawn sabers and revolvers, I won't have much choice, would I?

 

[TheOutlawKid]

The recoil sheild can actually cause chain fires..if the caps arent seated all the way and stand tall on thr nipples and when the gun is fired the cylinder can be pushed back causing the caps to hit the recoil sheild and cause the chain fire. Especially cci caps...they stand taller. Its another reason why i only use remington or homemade caps.

 

[Old Stumpy]

J. H. Dance & Brothers revolver is a Civil War South copy of the Colt Dragoon.

Basically, but not as big. More like an 1860 Army in size, and with a frame that doesn't need a rebated cylinder.

 

[arcticap]

I wondering about not having the shield behind the caps. Wouldn’t that make powder and fire shoot back at your hand

I doubt that Pietta would choose to make a reproduction that would injure the owner during such a predictable event.
Neither would the Dance Bros. who made the original revolver.

Not much flame comes out of the nipple during normal firing.
The most flame comes from under the hammer, probably created by the percussion cap in part and by the higher pressure.
A relatively very small amount of fire and flash comes from the nipples of the side chambers involved in a chain fire.
There's much less pressure in those chambers, and some of the unburned powder can be seen being expelled.
And caps would usually still be on the nipples of the chambers being chain fired, further blocking any flame.

Look at the nipples in this slow motion video after the 0:40 mark.



And in this video of a chain fire that was induced by intentionally loading undersized .445 balls, you don't see any flame coming from the nipples.
[Edit - only a tiny latent flash coming from the bottom left chamber since the percussion cap stayed on the nipple]
Watch beginning at the 0:54 mark.

 

[skeeterfogger]

About the only way flame/gas could come out of nipple would be extremely weak main spring. I have a Rogers and Spencer, I blocked the main spring to half for fast draw exhibition and never had issues. So feel safe saying if the main spring got that weak it probably wouldn't fire the primer.
It might, a bit, if the hole in the nipple eroded to massive hole in context to size of a new one. I know on single shot guns this erosion can cause the hammer to lift off the nipple and in worse cases can put the hammer on half cock where weak spring is present.
The only times I had chain fire, when I was a new 16 yo shooter, and I knew the ball fit and primer fit where proper plus using over ball lube I thought it was neat to get that big boom and smoke was billowing loading ball flush. Lots of billowing hot gas flying about. Once I changed to loading what provided best accuracy the issues went away. I haven had a chain fire in 46 years.
Others that had issues were loading adiquate charge, good ball fit and over ball lube but complained they were having to pinch the primers, #11s, to get them to stay on. Switched them over to #10s and problem went away.

 

[TheOutlawKid]

Ive never had a chain fire...but then again im very strict when it comes to proper nipple to cap fitment...always use a lube disk under the projectile too. I actually make paper cartridges that include powder, then card or wax paper, lube disk, card, then bullet/ball. This combo in theory insures that i should never have a chainfire....and so far its proven so. Also since i dont pour my powder into my chambers i never have loose powder that can be crushed between projectile and cylinder or any fine powder to slip out through the nipple hole etc...basically theres no powder longering outside the chamber. So im assuming the paper cartridge is helping with preventing chain fires as well. But the times that i have poured my powder i am very careful not to get any on my cylinder face or cylinder pin etc. I remember a friend was loading his pocket revolver and using a mix of 4f and 3f homemade powder and some of it trickled out through the nipple hole. Only reason we noticed it was because he couldnt figure out why he had loose grains on the palm of his hand when he cyled his cylinder while loading. That may have caused excessive flame around the nipple area and could have PROBABLY assisted in a chain fire from the nipple end of the gun.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

This is similar to what you are asking. I once had an old percussion double barreled shotgun. I was young and foolish (now I'm old and foolish.) The first time I shot it, I pulled back both hammers. When I fired the first side, the other side went off as well. The second side's cap blew back along with a bunch of unburnt powder. The cap and most of the powder hit my glasses but I still have a bit of tattooing on my cheek below where the rim of the glasses sat. Leaving the hammer down on the second side seemed to stop the problem which reinforces the theory that chain fires happen from the rear. I imagine that if a chain fire occurred in a Dance, you are correct in worrying that the cap and powder from one of the side chambers would fly back at your hand. I guess that is why its called a blast SHIELD. I have Pietta Dances in both .36 and .44 but have never fired either. Now that you have pointed out this design flaw, I probably won't.

 

[Russell13]

I love shooting my guns. So I’m thinking I may invest in a nice set of mechanics gloves. I have also had black powder shot into my skin and was no fun. Though I’ve never had a chain fire in any of my guns.

 

[arcticap]

I edited my post above about the 2nd chainfire video:

And in this video of a chain fire that was induced by intentionally loading undersized .445 balls, you don't see any flame coming from the nipples.
[Edit - only a tiny latent flash coming from the bottom left chamber since the percussion cap stayed on the nipple]

 

[arcticap]

Ginormous did get pretty badly burned when his Uberti Walker had a chainfire.
It was 2 chambers away from the one in battery, and was loaded with 35 grains of Swiss and an RWS cap that was seated with a push stick, a lube pill. and .457 ball.
The gun had stock nipples, and he believed that the cap fell off and then the flame engulfed his hand and burned it.

There's photos of the fresh burns on page 1: --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/chainfire-yay.445634/
There's more photos of the scabbed burns before they healed on page 3: --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/chainfire-yay.445634/page-3#post-5561170

Ginormous began wearing a golf glove when shooting after that incident, and so did some others.

 

[Mike 56]

I have never a chain fire but I have had cap and ball revolvers double fire. Twice was during the last cap shortage I was not busting caps before the first time I loaded and at the time I was using 3in1 oil It does not dry out. I was using wads 25 gr load in a 44 cal, CCI #11 caps pinched and they were both the first load of the day. The third time was with my NMA with as much powder as I could load and fit a Lee conical tumble lubed with Lee alox and #10 Remington caps. When they doubled I felt like when a semi-auto rifle doubles. I think the only time you get in trouble with multiple chambers firing at the same time is when the chamber that is six o'clock to battery goes off there is nowhere for the flash to go it comes back around burns you and can cook off more chambers. There guy in labs that have tried to the guns to chain fire and they can't do it short of using undersized balls. But it does happen. I saw a guy use .440 patched balls in a 44 colt it shot fine. I watched another guy load all six and cap one chamber at a time and shoot no chain fire. So what causes chain fire I give up. If I don't fire caps before loading I degrease the cylinder before loading the first load of the day and use caps that fit well. Using Smokein'Joes cap sizer #11 CCI caps fit nice snug, in fact, I have to pick off two or three fired caps off every load.

 

[Heir Kommt Die Sonne]

I've only ever had 4 chainfires, 2 on each cylinder full. Both was years ago, and on the same gun. They happened after I loaded my homecast bullets in the chambers and let the gun sit for a few days before we went out and fired it. I've still used homecast since but it was only those two times where they were sitting for days that they gave me a chainfire.
Anyway, both times as I was firing I didn't realize I even had a chainfire. I felt extra percussion and debris hit my face but that's it. Wasn't until I fired 3 rounds that I noticed all shots in the cylinder were gone and there were bits of lead in front of the cylinder on the barrel wedge, etc. The gun turned out fine after cleanup.
What I think happened was the imperfections in my homecast bullets left some channels and gouges in the bullets that simply allowed some gases to vent through and ignite the powder. I don't recall the caps being ignited, but they may have fell off. Or I think they were left on and that's how I was able to tell it was a chainfire.

Anyway it's nothing to be scared about. Worse case is your gun isn't fireable anymore, but that's unlikely. Just load with proper techniques, make sure the ball is properly sized, etc and watch the caps. Make sure there isn't excessive amounts of loose powder grains around the cylinder face.

 

[skeeterfogger]

I've only ever had 4 chainfires, 2 on each cylinder full. Both was years ago, and on the same gun. They happened after I loaded my homecast bullets in the chambers and let the gun sit for a few days before we went out and fired it. I've still used homecast since but it was only those two times where they were sitting for days that they gave me a chainfire.
Anyway, both times as I was firing I didn't realize I even had a chainfire. I felt extra percussion and debris hit my face but that's it. Wasn't until I fired 3 rounds that I noticed all shots in the cylinder were gone and there were bits of lead in front of the cylinder on the barrel wedge, etc. The gun turned out fine after cleanup.
What I think happened was the imperfections in my homecast bullets left some channels and gouges in the bullets that simply allowed some gases to vent through and ignite the powder. I don't recall the caps being ignited, but they may have fell off. Or I think they were left on and that's how I was able to tell it was a chainfire.

Anyway it's nothing to be scared about. Worse case is your gun isn't fireable anymore, but that's unlikely. Just load with proper techniques, make sure the ball is properly sized, etc and watch the caps. Make sure there isn't excessive amounts of loose powder grains around the cylinder face.

Just out of curiosity did you use over ball lube? If not do you think doing so could have stopped it?
I ask because I've read things that claim it happens at the primer and some say at ball. I lean to it can happen at either.

 

[Heir Kommt Die Sonne]

If not do you think doing so could have stopped it?

I didn't, but if I did in this scenario I don't think it would've. Lube melts.

claim it happens at the primer and some say at ball.

I'm with you, don't know which is true anymore. But I lean towards it's 90% towards the end of the ball. If someone has a chainfire even with fitting balls and wads, then I'm inclined to believe it had to do more with a bulge in the chamber itself, opening the sides of the ball up than it has to do with the primers.

Most of the time when I shoot these revolvers, I use a flask and pour in powder until it's at the top, then I seat a ball and ram it. There's a ring of lead. I repeat for all chambers and then I cap it. If it's first time loading, then I make sure the caps are firmly seated by lightly pressing my hammer against each one. I usually shoot 18-24 per shooting session.
I don't use my homecast much anymore, because they're conicals and most repros don't have a loading slot shaped for them.

EDIT: perhaps I should say this here but there is confusion about cap size. For our percussion revolvers, Remington #10s fit the best, and then CCI # 11s. You also have RWS 1075 , but those are pretty loose (in my experience.)
Don't use CCI#10, despite what the manual says. These are much shorter than the #11, so harder to get on right.

 

[skeeterfogger]

I didn't, but if I did in this scenario I don't think it would've. Lube melts.


I'm with you, don't know which is true anymore. But I lean towards it's 90% towards the end of the ball. If someone has a chainfire even with fitting balls and wads, then I'm inclined to believe it had to do more with a bulge in the chamber itself, opening the sides of the ball up than it has to do with the primers.

Most of the time when I shoot these revolvers, I use a flask and pour in powder until it's at the top, then I seat a ball and ram it. There's a ring of lead. I repeat for all chambers and then I cap it. If it's first time loading, then I make sure the caps are firmly seated by lightly pressing my hammer against each one. I usually shoot 18-24 per shooting session.
I don't use my homecast much anymore, because they're conicals and most repros don't have a loading slot shaped for them.

EDIT: perhaps I should say this here but there is confusion about cap size. For our percussion revolvers, Remington #10s fit the best, and then CCI # 11s. You also have RWS 1075 , but those are pretty loose (in my experience.)
Don't use CCI#10, despite what the manual says. These are much shorter than the #11, so harder to get on right.

When I first started in BP, back when typing class still used chisels and stone, I had bought #11s. Had to pinch them to hold on. Did not lube. Had some chain fires.
Got the suggestion to lube but still had some. So figure happening at primer.
Got #10s. Fit great. Tried without lube. Had a few. Figured at ball.
Reapplied lube. Still but very few. Now what?
One thing being young I liked the big boom and smoke so loading to at or near flush was the load.
At same time a friend was having same issues plus after 12 rounds he near had to beat the cylinder pin out of his 1858 regardless of lube. We were using Crisco as over ball lube. I was shooting a Rogers and Spencer but no cylinder pin issues.
One day a guy told me to load to what gets accuracy and change lube. So armed with info I started at 18 gns. No lube. And once in blue moon chain fire. Experimented and came up with 80% hard wax to 20% veggie oil heated together for lube. Nice and sticky thick. Ended up that 18gns with conical, 22gns with .454 ball (standard) and the lube cured the problems.
My interpretation of events convinced me that gap around primer can catch hot gases. Loss of over lube can too. And above initial performance load can overtly provide those hot gases.
My friend saw the results and started doing same and to this day I've not had a chain fire nor did he. And it's been near on 50 years.