CHAIN FIRE

[woodnbow]

No, it didn’t just happen to me. But it’s been discussed recently and I got to thinking, how many of us have had a chain fire? What happened when we did?

Obviously I would have preferred never to have even one but in 60 years of cap and ball revolver shooting I had two. Both from the same gun, and on the same day, within minutes of each other. Neither gun nor shooter was harmed and once I began using the correct .465” sized ball (no grease, no wad just a .465” ball in a .456” chamber as recommended by Pietta) all was well and it’s back to normal 100% ignition, no failures, no drama. I’ve not had another.

Most of my shooting is with various bullets 195-240gr. over maximum charges with a small amount of lube in the grease grooves and an oversized .465” x .030” fiber wad. Short of the chambers being badly scored there’s just no where for a chain fire to begin. Even when using round ball, in most of my guns that would be a .457” ball, no lube, maybe a card wad or maybe not but again, thousands of rounds per year with a chain fire rate of .0001% or less. Not sure anything needs to be changed unless it’s just for the sake of change.

I checked the powder stores and so far this year I’ve burned 8# of 3f Swiss, my last pound of 3f Old Eynsford and that’s almost exclusively burned in revolvers. I shot up my last open jugs of Triple 7 and Pyrodex this year too. No chain fires far and as we close the books on 2022 I’m feeling lucky… what’s your experience with chain fires?

 

[Bibbyman]

I had one last winter on a Pietta 1860 Army. No idea if it was flashing over on front or back end of cylinder. Cap was gone. Only one in many years. Maybe ever.

 

[Slamfire]

Never say never! No matter what those who say "I never saw it, therefore it can't happen", it does!

Chain fires go back, I mean way, way back.


Colonel Samuel Colt
Lecture at the London Institution of Civil Engineers, 25 Nov 1851

Fig 11, plate 1, represents a firearm made by the author, in 1836, to rotate and fire by the continued action of the lever, or by the use of a trigger.

The arms so constructed, consisting of a large number of pieces, and assemble in a complicated manner, were to found to possess many practical disadvantages, arising chiefly from the wish of the Author to construct compact and good looking weapons. His original experiments all been made on the skeleton arms, solely with a view to utility, and in them there was not the liability of premature explosion, from the escape of fire at the mouth of the chamber, or by inter-communication of the ignited detonating camps, but when he enclosed the rear, and the mouths of the rotating chambers, the fire, being confined beneath the shield and the cap, was communicated successfully to the percussion caps, and in front was conveyed into the chambers, so that premature and simultaneous explosion of the charges necessarily took place.

In consequence of these premature explosions it became necessary to remove the shield, from over the base of the chambers, and to introduce partitions, between the nipples, or cones, to prevent the fire from spreading to and exploding the adjoining caps; but this only partially accomplished the object There still remained risk of explosion from the spreading of the fire laterally between the base of the barrel and the face of the chamber. To meet this danger, the metal plate which was attached to the barrel, and projected over the chambers, was removed; this obviated to a certain extent, but did not altogether prevent the simultaneous explosion of the charges for during a trial of the arm, by order of the American Government, an accident occurred, from the simultaneous explosion of two chambers, which induced the Author, after much reflection to give a slight chamfer, or bevel to the orifice of each chamber, so as to deflect, or throw off at an outward angle, the fire which expanded laterally across their mouths. The reason for this alteration was, that when the lateral fire met the rectangular edge of the orifice of the chambers, the angle of incidence being equal to the angle of reflection, the fire was conducted downwards, or inwards to the charge’ but when the flame struck the chamfered edge, it was directed outward away from the charge. Unimportant as this alteration may appear, it has proved so effectual, that if loose powder is placed over the charge, in the adjoining chambers, it is not now ignited when the pistol is discharged. These and other improvements have brought the fire-arm to its present safe and effective condition and the Author believes, that no causality can occur, nor that more than on charge can be fired at one time, if the metal is sound and the arm is properly handled.

My experience: I have not shot enough bullets through black powder revolvers to have experienced a chain fire. But I am absolutely sure, if I had, I sure would have. If you shoot enough rounds, you will experience all sorts of unexpected and rare misfortunes.

So thanks for your experience.

 

[hawg]

I bought my first bp revolver when I was 12. It was a 58 Remington made by Rigarmi in 1969. It fired all 6 chambers the first time I shot it. I didn't know anything about how to load it or anything else. I didn't have a powder measure, I just poured powder in until it looked right. More often than not I had to cut the end of the balls off to get the cylinder to turn. I used it as a single shot for awhile. I don't know how long it took me to figure out if I put a drop of oil on top of the balls it wouldn't do it. I remember shooting it over water and seeing the chain fired balls just plopping into the water a few yards away. A 58 Remington doesn't have the strongest loading lever in the world but chain fires never damaged it. I did manage to break it a couple of years later but that was from trying to load balls made from wheel weights. As for the caps on chambers that chain yeah, they explode. I've had my wrist and lower arm peppered by cap fragments and sometimes they brought a drop of blood. I still have the old gun and it's still a good shooter. It will still chain if you don't use wads or lube. It wont chain from the nipple end.

 

[LonesomePigeon]

My Pietta Shooter's Model 1858 Remington has nominal .456" chamber diameters. It will chainfire if I use cast .457 balls with no wad, filler or lube and I'm not careful to keep the sprue up. If I ad a wad, filler or lube it will not chainfire and I don't have to worry about the sprue placement.

 

[drobs]

I was trying for awhile there but no luck yet. I'd say it's impossible using oversized Hornady ball. Thought I would get one shooting blanks - powder & wad but no ball. Nope.

I do have some cast 454 dia ball, that I'll have to try with the sprue off to the side and no lube.

 

[woodnbow]

My Pietta Shooter's Model 1858 Remington has nominal .456" chamber diameters. It will chainfire if I use cast .457 balls with no wad, filler or lube and I'm not careful to keep the sprue up. If I ad a wad, filler or lube it will not chainfire and I don't have to worry about the sprue placement.

That’s the one which chain fired for me. I was using .457 ball. No wad, no grease, 30 grains of Swiss. I knew Pietta recommended .465” ball but didn’t have any handy. Oops. No harm, no foul. The gun showed no evidence of, well, anything at all. Shot great with the right ball.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

My ASM Walker chainfired once. I think it was due to loose nipples. It blew 2 of them out, one hit me in the lower lip causing many dirty words. I re threaded the cylinder for 1\4 28 hot shot nipples and have never had a problem again.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

This is my Ubert 44 caliber brass framed 1851 Navy Cap & Ball I bought brand spanky-new in 1968. You can see the Uberti trademark at the front of the frame, below the cylinder. Yes, I know the Navy was never chambered for 44 caliber balls, and never had a brass frame, but I did not know that back in 1968. As I recall, it was listed in the old Service Arms catalog (the precursor to Navy Arms) as Army 60. Go figure.

In those days I would put a charge of 30 grains of Goex (no I do not remember what granulation) into each chamber, followed by a .451 lead ball. Then I would goop Crisco over the balls. Yes, again, nobody was telling us back in 1968 to not put 30 grains of powder into a brass framed Cap & Ball, now we know better.






One day around 1970 or so I was out in a field and spied a woodchuck near his hole. I cocked the hammer and carefully drew a bead on the woodchuck. What happened next was a very loud report and the revolver almost jumped out of my hand. I had had a chain fire.The chamber next to the one at battery had also discharged. Examining the revolver, it was plain that the errant ball had to emerge from its chamber and struck the square portion of the barrel directly in front of the cylinder. It then ricocheted off and wound up who knows where. When I looked the woodchuck was gone, I suspect he escaped with his life.

Where did the spark ignite the next charge? Some will say all chain fires originate with loosely fitting caps. I have argued this until I am blue in the face. I firmly believe if an imperfect ball is seated, one which may have a nick or dent on its circumference, and the nick or dent is part of the ring that is shaved off when the ball is seated, a tiny void may exist between the ball and the chamber wall. A perfect path for an errant spark to find its way into the next chamber. Anybody who has ever gooped Crisco over a ball knows that the heat of firing will melt the Crisco in the next chamber and the result is a thin, runny layer of Crisco which does a poor job of preventing sparks from finding their way into a void between the ball and the chamber wall.

Needless to say, when I discovered Wonder Wads a few years later I never gooped Crisco over the chambers again. I always seated a Wonder Wad between powder and ball instead. 1/8" or so wool wad makes a much better spark arrestor than a thin layer of melted Crisco.

Many years later I was shooting my old Uberti brass framed 'Navy' and I noticed it was shooting very high. It turns out, the frame was stretched. Either by the impact of the errant ball on the barrel, or by too many 30 grain loads. As it turns out, when the barrel is snugged up the proper amount with the wedge, the barrel is pointing up enough to make all the shots go high.

I still have my old Uberti revolver, but I have relegated it to wall hanger status and have not fired it in many years.

 

[ShotgunDave]

I've never had one, but my daughter has. And it was entirely my fault. I gave her an ASM 62 Pocket Navy. I didn't have any balls for it, so I loaded it with 00 Buck. They were a tad loose in the chambers but I thought they'd be okay. First shot was fine, so I figured we were good. Second shot touched off the remaining chambers. No harm was done and it was almost unnoticeable. The only way we knew for sure was because the gun was empty! I happened to be videoing her while she fired the gun. You can see the chain fire happen in the video.

Lesson learned. ALWAYS use the proper sized ball for the gun.

 

[hawg]

Some will say all chain fires originate with loosely fitting caps. I have argued this until I am blue in the face.

I have argued that too. I tried to induce my chain fire special to chain from the nipples by leaving all the caps off save the one under the hammer and as long as I use lube or a wad it still wont chain. I've tried it with other guns with the same results.

 

[whughett]

No, it didn’t just happen to me. But it’s been discussed recently and I got to thinking, how many of us have had a chain fire? What happened when we did?

Obviously I would have preferred never to have even one but in 60 years of cap and ball revolver shooting I had two. Both from the same gun, and on the same day, within minutes of each other. Neither gun nor shooter was harmed and once I began using the correct .465” sized ball (no grease, no wad just a .465” ball in a .456” chamber as recommended by Pietta) all was well and it’s back to normal 100% ignition, no failures, no drama. I’ve not had another.

Most of my shooting is with various bullets 195-240gr. over maximum charges with a small amount of lube in the grease grooves and an oversized .465” x .030” fiber wad. Short of the chambers being badly scored there’s just no where for a chain fire to begin. Even when using round ball, in most of my guns that would be a .457” ball, no lube, maybe a card wad or maybe not but again, thousands of rounds per year with a chain fire rate of .0001% or less. Not sure anything needs to be changed unless it’s just for the sake of change.

I checked the powder stores and so far this year I’ve burned 8# of 3f Swiss, my last pound of 3f Old Eynsford and that’s almost exclusively burned in revolvers. I shot up my last open jugs of Triple 7 and Pyrodex this year too. No chain fires far and as we close the books on 2022 I’m feeling lucky… what’s your experience with chain fires?

I’m a little curious of the .465 round ball you’ve mentioned in two posts. That seems a tad large for a 44 caliber barrel whose bore is generally.452. I see TOW does list a .465 roundbal.

 

[hawg]

Many years later I was shooting my old Uberti brass framed 'Navy' and I noticed it was shooting very high. It turns out, the frame was stretched. Either by the impact of the errant ball on the barrel, or by too many 30 grain loads. As it turns out, when the barrel is snugged up the proper amount with the wedge, the barrel is pointing up enough to make all the shots go high.

I still have my old Uberti revolver, but I have relegated it to wall hanger status and have not fired it in many years.

Just curious but did you correct the short arbor? The cylinder gap in the pic seems to be even from top to bottom. If the arbor is still short and you drive the wedge in too deep it will force the barrel to point high.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

And most likely lock up the cylinder.

 

[hawg]

And most likely lock up the cylinder.

Depends on the cylinder gap and how deep you drive it.

 

[MEHavey]

Some will say all chain fires originate with loosely fitting caps. I have argued this until I am blue in the face.

Please explain the only alternative... that the ignition flame somehow gets past the chamber
mouth sealed with swaged lead (to the point of shaved lead ring) of the ball.....
(Or are we dealing with those who load undersize projectiles?)


.

 

[hawg]

Please explain the only alternative... that the ignition flame somehow gets past the chamber
mouth sealed with swaged lead (to the point of shaved lead ring) of the ball.....
(Or are we dealing with those who load undersize projectiles?)

Chambers being slightly out of round which is what I believe the problem with my old Remington is could let fire past the balls even tho it cuts a nice ring of lead. Another theory is that powder can get trapped between the ball and the side of the chamber when the balls are loaded.

 

[woodnbow]

I’m a little curious of the .465 round ball you’ve mentioned in two posts. That seems a tad large for a 44 caliber barrel whose bore is generally.452. I see TOW does list a .465 roundbal.

This is used in guns which have .456” chambers, Pietta Shooters Models as well as the cylinders I’ve had reamed by Charlie Hahn. I understand that the Tom Ball modified Remingtons were set up this way also.

 

[Jim Watson]

Another theory is that powder can get trapped between the ball and the side of the chamber when the balls are loaded.

I read an article to that effect, and that even powder clinging to the cylinder face was a risk.

 

[whughett]

I read an article to that effect, and that even powder clinging to the cylinder face was a risk.

The chain fires Ive had I do believe was from sloppy loading on my part. Loose powder on the chambers face. I’ve gotten into the habit now of rotating the cylinder clearing that before the wad and ball is set. I load six and had one from being distracted and loading six but only 5 balls.

 

[Navy Six 2]

Only one in 30 years. Uberti copy of Colt Pocket Navy. My own cast .375 round ball that had obvious casting flaws. Shot it anyway. Lesson learned.

 

[dickydalton]

Once. A .440 ball got mixed in and somehow stuck in the cylinder on top of a lubed wad in one of my 1858s. I knew it immediatlly. The cap did Not ignite at all.

 

[gtrgy888]

My only chain fire was a year back experimenting with homemade caps that fit loose and had slightly too much priming compound. They ballooned out when seated, leaving a lip for flame to get under. I shot a couple rounds successfully, but my third shot went ba ba boom like a three round burst as the first shot, second cap, then second hangfire detonated. The adjacent chamber went off and the lead conical left a slight smear of lead on the lip of the barrel as it shot out the cylinder alongside the barrel and out into the brush. After testing shots out of the cylinder with no barrel attached, the .36 only packed ~50 foot pounds energy with roundball and full chamber of premium black powder. The trip down the barrel quadrupled that force to ~200 foot pounds energy. Without the barrel to add velocity, chainfires have more bark than bite and I think they can be set off on either end.