Writing in the 'how dangerous are guns to children' thread, a thought occurred to me. I'm looking at getting a shotgun sidesaddle, but I realized, those shells could be easily popped off by little hands and used for other purposes. Depending on how the gun is locked up, the same could be said of the shells in the magazine, or of the boxes of shells I'd hide away elsewhere. My wife and I are a fan of the 'boys will be boys and sometimes they'll set forest fires' line of thought where we accept 'reasonable' risks that our kids will take, but is that reasonable? If a kid got a hold of a shotgun shell or bullet and tossed it in a fire, hit it with a hammer, fed it to the cat, etc. how dangerous is it without the benefit of a barrel to get it up to speed? How can you reduce that danger (eg: using buck shot instead of slugs, encasing the cartridge in steel, etc.)? Is this a real concern for a father of destructive children?
Danger of bullets but no gun?
- Thread starter nezumi
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sig226
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If they took a shotgun shell out of the carrier and caused it to fire by smacking the primer with a hammer and a punch, it really won't do much unless it's in a tight fitting barrel. The shell will burst and burn their fingers, making it a mistake they will not repeat.
If they throw it in a fire, it pops under very low pressure, certainly less than what they would get if they tried the same stunt with a can of hairspray or spray paint.
Since there's no firing chamber, the cartridge can't contain the pressure needed to make the shot (or bullet) move at firearm velocities. It's no more dangerous than a firecracker.
If they can find a way to make the cat eat a cartridge, I would like you to get a video of it, as my cat will not eat them and I would like to learn how to teach this trick.
A large dog could conceivably fire a primer if it chewed on a cartridge. Since there would be shattered pieces of the shell, and a hot flame from the powder, this could seriously injure the dog.
It's not really that much of danger. There are far more dangerous things for children in any home.
If they throw it in a fire, it pops under very low pressure, certainly less than what they would get if they tried the same stunt with a can of hairspray or spray paint.
Since there's no firing chamber, the cartridge can't contain the pressure needed to make the shot (or bullet) move at firearm velocities. It's no more dangerous than a firecracker.
If they can find a way to make the cat eat a cartridge, I would like you to get a video of it, as my cat will not eat them and I would like to learn how to teach this trick.
A large dog could conceivably fire a primer if it chewed on a cartridge. Since there would be shattered pieces of the shell, and a hot flame from the powder, this could seriously injure the dog.
It's not really that much of danger. There are far more dangerous things for children in any home.
Jorg Nysgerrig
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While not nearly as dangerous as from a gun, they are still dangerous enough to lose an eye or get a pellet through the skin.
Teach your kids what "No" means instead of just shrugging and saying "boys will be boys." When they get older, "boys will be boys" gets a lot more expensive and a lot more permanent.
Only if you can't be bothered to train your kids and don't want to risk letting one be the example.
DoubleTapDrew
Member
There isn't a huge danger if it's not contained in a barrel, but you still don't want kids fooling around with them (or anything else flammable for that matter) because it can still cause injury or possibly death.
You could get an inexpensive lockable cabinet for ammo or the gun if you'll load your HD shotgun before bed and unload it in the morning if you think they'll get into them (and preferably have a carry gun on you at all times in case you don't have enough time to load your shotgun at other times).
Education is the best tool though. Take away the mystery. Let them know it's absolutely off limits unless mom or dad is around lets them handle it. I got into all kinds of mischief when I was younger but I knew from a very early age guns and ammunition are something you never fool with unless parents supervise and approve. If they are old/responsible enough, take them shooting with a .22 if you have access to one. Youngins have saved their parents lives with knowledge and access to guns.
You could get an inexpensive lockable cabinet for ammo or the gun if you'll load your HD shotgun before bed and unload it in the morning if you think they'll get into them (and preferably have a carry gun on you at all times in case you don't have enough time to load your shotgun at other times).
Education is the best tool though. Take away the mystery. Let them know it's absolutely off limits unless mom or dad is around lets them handle it. I got into all kinds of mischief when I was younger but I knew from a very early age guns and ammunition are something you never fool with unless parents supervise and approve. If they are old/responsible enough, take them shooting with a .22 if you have access to one. Youngins have saved their parents lives with knowledge and access to guns.
princewally
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It does a good job of spraying hot coals and the pellets hit surrounding trees pretty hard.
Chipperman
Member
You bring up some important questions.
I am a father of three young Boys, so I have a lot of the same concerns. Personally, I am much more concerned about them playing with matches and knives than I am with the guns and ammo.
I think the biggest weapon in your safety arsenal is education. Talk to the kids, if they are old enough, about the potential dangers of things in the house.
I remember doing all kinds of dangerous things when I was a kid. I was always very careful with guns, however, because I knew about how dangerous they could be. I thought of matches as toys, though. I literally played with fire. Thankfully, I never burned down the house.
In addition to education, your next point should be having fun with the kids. I know half of the destructive things I did as a boy was becuase of boredom.
Find fun activities like the ones in the books "Backyard Ballistics" or "The Dangerous Book for Boys".
http://backyard-ballistics.com/
http://www.dangerousbookforboys.com/
My kids are not quite old enough for these activities, but I own both of these books and plan on using them.
I am a father of three young Boys, so I have a lot of the same concerns. Personally, I am much more concerned about them playing with matches and knives than I am with the guns and ammo.
I think the biggest weapon in your safety arsenal is education. Talk to the kids, if they are old enough, about the potential dangers of things in the house.
I remember doing all kinds of dangerous things when I was a kid. I was always very careful with guns, however, because I knew about how dangerous they could be. I thought of matches as toys, though. I literally played with fire. Thankfully, I never burned down the house.
In addition to education, your next point should be having fun with the kids. I know half of the destructive things I did as a boy was becuase of boredom.
Find fun activities like the ones in the books "Backyard Ballistics" or "The Dangerous Book for Boys".
http://backyard-ballistics.com/
http://www.dangerousbookforboys.com/
My kids are not quite old enough for these activities, but I own both of these books and plan on using them.
A lot of the reasons kids (more boys than girls mostly) get into trouble is just curiosity. It is best to find a way to satisfy that curiosity in a safe way, rather than have them trying to satisfy it themselves in a way that may be unsafe.
chris in va
Member
Thinking back to my 'boy' days, I suspect they will be curious about what's inside the shell and cut it open. They might set fire to the powder as well.
Heck, I do that now at 37!
Heck, I do that now at 37!
DWARREN123
Member
Always secure anything dangerous from children and idiots.
Beatnik
Member
This is a sore spot with me, since when this comes up we usually hear about how it's not that bad for a shell to detonate in a kid's hand. Stop and think about that for a second. Then go read the box of shells: my money says there's a "keep away from children" warning on the box.
Also...
Would you leave your chainsaw out in your yard?
Would you leave your kitchen knives out on the counter?
Kids will get a hold of whatever they want. Even if you have your shells locked up in a security box, which is locked up in a firesafe, which is locked up in a gun safe, they're going to get to them if they want them.
But if you leave them out, you're sending a message, not just to your kids, but to your family, neighbors, and every anti in the state. You're saying that you're the type of guy who leaves his chainsaw out in his yard.
I'd say that living in Maryland, you probably shouldn't assume you have much breathing room here. In fact, in Virginia I'm pretty sure (was part of a pistol course I took 5 years ago) there's a law that holds a homeowner accountable if a minor finds an unsecured firearm on your property and something bad happens. If that's what it's like in relatively-free VA, I can't imagine what the MD statutes say.
Also...
Would you leave your chainsaw out in your yard?
Would you leave your kitchen knives out on the counter?
Kids will get a hold of whatever they want. Even if you have your shells locked up in a security box, which is locked up in a firesafe, which is locked up in a gun safe, they're going to get to them if they want them.
But if you leave them out, you're sending a message, not just to your kids, but to your family, neighbors, and every anti in the state. You're saying that you're the type of guy who leaves his chainsaw out in his yard.
I'd say that living in Maryland, you probably shouldn't assume you have much breathing room here. In fact, in Virginia I'm pretty sure (was part of a pistol course I took 5 years ago) there's a law that holds a homeowner accountable if a minor finds an unsecured firearm on your property and something bad happens. If that's what it's like in relatively-free VA, I can't imagine what the MD statutes say.
hopkin
Member
How about showing the kids what shotgun shells can do when fired? It might scare them away from messing around with them.
Just a thought, why not lock up your ammo in some simple lockable cases/toolboxes/whatever? I do, and I don't even have kids. Though, by law I have to here in MA.
Anyway, as far as the potential damage, you should check out the mythbusters episode where they test this.
Long story short, they tested myths about putting ammo in a fire, and storing ammo in an oven (say, while on vacation).
The ammo they set off in the oven (took about 500 degrees) was basically harmless. I think they tried everything from .22LR to .50 BMG. None of the rounds even broke through the glass on door of the oven. Only the .50 BMG broke 1 pane of glass (but not the second pane).
The campfire part, they set up wood kinda like a teepee around the fire, then they used a robot to dump something like 100 rounds of assorted ammo on the fire (same range as last time, .22LR to .50 BMG). After all the rounds went off, they checked for damage. If I remember correctly, they found one hit that slightly nicked the wood, the rest basically bounced off.
They concluded that ammo set off outside of a gun was non-lethal and would be lucky to even break the skin. I suppose taking a hit to the eye might ruin your day but that's about it.
I don't have kids so I'm not gonna pretend to lecture you in any way, just posting what I saw.
Dope
Anyway, as far as the potential damage, you should check out the mythbusters episode where they test this.
Long story short, they tested myths about putting ammo in a fire, and storing ammo in an oven (say, while on vacation).
The ammo they set off in the oven (took about 500 degrees) was basically harmless. I think they tried everything from .22LR to .50 BMG. None of the rounds even broke through the glass on door of the oven. Only the .50 BMG broke 1 pane of glass (but not the second pane).
The campfire part, they set up wood kinda like a teepee around the fire, then they used a robot to dump something like 100 rounds of assorted ammo on the fire (same range as last time, .22LR to .50 BMG). After all the rounds went off, they checked for damage. If I remember correctly, they found one hit that slightly nicked the wood, the rest basically bounced off.
They concluded that ammo set off outside of a gun was non-lethal and would be lucky to even break the skin. I suppose taking a hit to the eye might ruin your day but that's about it.
I don't have kids so I'm not gonna pretend to lecture you in any way, just posting what I saw.
Dope
Crunker1337
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It could cause significant injury to a child.
Best to teach your kid what Eddie Eagle says, which is don't touch.
Best to teach your kid what Eddie Eagle says, which is don't touch.
Danger of ammo.
In a recent thread on cooking off rounds someone mentioned that steel cased rounds acted significantly different to brass (and plastic presumably). Of course I should have asked for more details then but have been thinking about it since. Can anyone elaborate? I haven't seen the mythbusters episode, I presume they used brass cased ammo, did they split when the rounds cooked off?
Getting back to the original topic when I was about 10 I managed to get some shotgun shells and constructed a steel pipe shotgun and various pipe bombs, lucklily I have all my fingers and both eyes. I grew up in Ireland which has even stricter rules than England so I probably would have been less inquisitive, and safer, if someone could have brought me shooting as a kid, prohibition definitely made them more attractive.
I would definitely keep them away from kids though, apart from anything else there's lead poisoning to worry about.
Glennser
In a recent thread on cooking off rounds someone mentioned that steel cased rounds acted significantly different to brass (and plastic presumably). Of course I should have asked for more details then but have been thinking about it since. Can anyone elaborate? I haven't seen the mythbusters episode, I presume they used brass cased ammo, did they split when the rounds cooked off?
Getting back to the original topic when I was about 10 I managed to get some shotgun shells and constructed a steel pipe shotgun and various pipe bombs, lucklily I have all my fingers and both eyes. I grew up in Ireland which has even stricter rules than England so I probably would have been less inquisitive, and safer, if someone could have brought me shooting as a kid, prohibition definitely made them more attractive.
I would definitely keep them away from kids though, apart from anything else there's lead poisoning to worry about.
Glennser
1) My concern is about a HD gun, so clearly, having it available is very important. I don't have the money right now for a full sized gun safe, and wouldn't want that in my closet anyway. I'm wondering though if I can safely take advantage of a side saddle, or if even having shells loaded in the internal magazine of a shotgun is a bad idea with kids around (assuming the worst case - the kids decide to be boneheaded). I'm not considering leaving shells rolling around on the ground or anything (although I do have to decide how much effort I need to spend on protecting the`remainder of the box. I'll probably either have them out of reach in the basement or locked in the garage.)
2) I do intend to use training, including firing (probably a blank, since I don't want to cart them all the way to the range, fire one shot, then cart them all the way back). However, as I've said elsewhere, my kids are young and boneheaded, and I like redundant systems. Obviously, if the shells aren't a real substantial danger, things like a sidesaddle are an option for me. If they are real dangers, I'll have to more carefully consider where to put the weapon and whether I should be getting a shotgun at all (since shells can be ejected from a shotgun even if it's locked to a wall).
I hope most of the people here realize I am joking around when talking about letting my kids start forest fires If I weren't a protective and concerned parent I probably wouldn't be posting about this.
Thanks for the info though. Good to know, good to share. I'm almost tempted to run my own experiments (not on kids, mind you. At least not on my kids) to be sure.
2) I do intend to use training, including firing (probably a blank, since I don't want to cart them all the way to the range, fire one shot, then cart them all the way back). However, as I've said elsewhere, my kids are young and boneheaded, and I like redundant systems. Obviously, if the shells aren't a real substantial danger, things like a sidesaddle are an option for me. If they are real dangers, I'll have to more carefully consider where to put the weapon and whether I should be getting a shotgun at all (since shells can be ejected from a shotgun even if it's locked to a wall).
I hope most of the people here realize I am joking around when talking about letting my kids start forest fires
If I weren't a protective and concerned parent I probably wouldn't be posting about this.Thanks for the info though. Good to know, good to share. I'm almost tempted to run my own experiments (not on kids, mind you. At least not on my kids) to be sure.
The Wiry Irishman
Member
Well, I can tell you what happens when you shoot the primer out of a shotgun shell with an air pistol, (something I did as a kid). The shot travels about 1 foot, (if that), the shell shoots back around 20 feet and it makes a cracking noise about as loud as a ladyfinger. It's a somewhat challenging target.
karz10
Member
I'm down w/ educating the kids and all that, but if you want quick access to a long gun and extra ammo, but want to still minimize your risks, you may want to look at something like this: http://vlineind.com/html/closet_vault.html
I don't have my shotgun yet, but when I get one, I've been looking at something like this to keep it in. It fits between the wall studs, and can go behind a door or in a closet. It uses a keypad entry w/ no batteries needed. You can also keep a couple handguns in there, and a couple long guns, or other valuables, depending how you configure it.
I also saw another one from another company, but can't find the link right now.
Just helping you explore your options. Same company also makes one that goes under the bed, if that's you're thing, but I wanted something mounted harder to walk away with.
Karz
I don't have my shotgun yet, but when I get one, I've been looking at something like this to keep it in. It fits between the wall studs, and can go behind a door or in a closet. It uses a keypad entry w/ no batteries needed. You can also keep a couple handguns in there, and a couple long guns, or other valuables, depending how you configure it.
I also saw another one from another company, but can't find the link right now.
Just helping you explore your options. Same company also makes one that goes under the bed, if that's you're thing, but I wanted something mounted harder to walk away with.
Karz
I'd say education is most important. When I was very young, my father took me around the house and showed me where all the firearms were (we had them stashed here and there for easy access during a home invasion ). He then told me I was not to touch them unless I asked first, and stressed that he would be happy to take me to the range whenever I asked.
This let me know that messing with the guns could get me or somebody else killed, and it took the curiosity of them away since I could go to the range practically whenever I asked.
I never disobeyed my parents on this issue, and I was eventually allowed to carry my firearms when I was hiking around our property
). He then told me I was not to touch them unless I asked first, and stressed that he would be happy to take me to the range whenever I asked.This let me know that messing with the guns could get me or somebody else killed, and it took the curiosity of them away since I could go to the range practically whenever I asked.
I never disobeyed my parents on this issue, and I was eventually allowed to carry my firearms when I was hiking around our property
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