DAO is a SAFER carry gun... (that got your attention)

[CPshooter]

I personally don't even feel like you can classify guns as only DA/SA, SAO, DAO these days. They all work so differently, and have their own measures of safety. What is a safety? A DAO operation? why so? It doesn't make sense to me why it really matters whether or not a firing pin or a hammer is fully forward or cocked back. A DAO pistol with a 3lbs trigger pull(if you can get it that light with whatever gun you have) in my eyes is more dangerous than a SA gun at 7lbs...Why does it matter where the hammer is when what really matters is whether or not the trigger itself is capable of an accidental squeeze due to stress or a drop?

That's what im saying. With all the random safeties out there like XDs w/ their basically SA firing pin, made safe by a trigger than won't budge unless a finger is in the trigger guard....not to mention the grip safety that creates another "built-in" safety. Then there's the 1911..sure its a SA gun, but it has a grip safety. What makes that 1911 more dangerous than your DAO w/ its partially cocked firing pin/hammer? Either way for both of them to be shot it would require an intentional grip of the gun and squeeze of the trigger to set off a round. In addition, you are putting faith in the manufacturer to make a quality gun that you can hold that kind of confidence in, so malfunctions are neglegible, because both are assumed to be reliable and safe until intentionally shot.

So, again, what makes a 1911 less safe for carry than a DAO? As far as i can tell, nothing. In my opinion, its all about what the user is comfortable AND safe with. It's best to just pick a trigger pull style from one of several offered by today's manufacturers(ie: "DAK" "LEM" "AS"), combined with a trigger pull weight(most guns' triggers can be tweaked) that the user is comfortable with and can shoot well. It really does boil down to each shooter individually and their needs.

I never understood why people are always stressing over whether their gun is SA, DA, or whatever...seems so stupid considering there are just too darn many trigger pull/hammer variations available Pick the gun that best fits its duty AND the user.

 

[Autolycus]

Timbokhan:

The Las Vegas officer had a Beretta. She did not have a Glock. The DEA agent who was "the only one qualified that he knew of" had the Glock.

Here is a link to the video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd_pgcmI490

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

If you want to screw around with 1.5 seconds of time turning the safety off, hey man, that's all you. When I'm dealing with that little of time, I want anything that *might* slow me down to NOT be there.

The proper training technique with the 1911, as perfected by Jeff Cooper many long years ago, is to swipe off the safety as part of your draw and fire routine. There is NO extra time taken to do this. ZERO! You don't know what you are talking about on this point.

 

[Wordsmith]

Non-DAO is dangerous?

I wouldn't carry a gun that wasn't dangerous.

That's all I have to say about that.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Reminds me of Jeff Cooper's story about the boy who informed the deputy sheriff that his pistol's hammer is cocked. The deputy said, "Yes, that's right, son." The boy asked, "Well, isn't that dangerous?" to which the deputy crouched down to meet him face to face and replied, "You damn betcha."

 

[iiibdsiil]

The proper training technique with the 1911, as perfected by Jeff Cooper many long years ago, is to swipe off the safety as part of your draw and fire routine. There is NO extra time taken to do this. ZERO! You don't know what you are talking about on this point.

Okay, and since when is a 1911 the only gun with a safety?

And, I betcha half of the people in this thread, provided they HAD to use their weapon, would screw up something, and I'm not saying I'm part of the half that wouldn't screw up.

All I'm saying is I don't want to have to worry about ANYTHING other then pulling the trigger. If I could open carry, I would, to avoid having my shirt catch, and trying to 100% locate the thing without dropping it, screwing something up, etc, in a 1.5 second time slot. If YOU are confident in NOT screwing anything up, that's all you man. Hopefully you are right.

I've always been taught simple is better, especially when it comes to things like, I don't know, YOUR LIFE.

 

[bakert]

DAO is a safer gun for carry? NANNY STATE thinking??

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

iiib, I've been carrying and shooting 1911s since the early 1980s. I got to the point long ago that I'm not even aware of swiping the safety off when I draw and putting it back on when I holster. It's just automatic. So much so that when I pick up a Glock my thumb automatically searches for the thumb safety and attempts to flip it down and when I go to holster a Glock my thumb searches for the thumb safety to engage it. This doesn't slow me down when shooting Glocks at all, by the way. If that level of training is not for you, though, stick with the Glocks. They are fine weapons too. Just not as good as a 1911.

Glocks, IMO, are for folks who cannot be trusted to train with their weapons. Not to say they are bad, and not to say that training with them doesn't make for a lethal combatant. Just talking about the design intentions. The 1911 is designed for one purpose, i.e., to be a maximally lethal weapon in the hands of anyone who trains with it. Concerns about the fellow who doesn't want to train with his weapon were not considered when it was designed. Only maximum effectiveness in combat. If I were to arm a group of men who had little or no training, and I couldn't afford to provide them with any, I'd give them all Glocks and a basic lecture on their use. If I had the funds to train the men, they'd all have 1911s.

PS About ten years ago, I was shooting next to a New York City police officer preparing for his yearly qualification. He was using a double action only pistol, I had a 1911. He had never so much as seen a 1911 up close before. He noticed how much faster I was shooting, and how much tighter my groups were at the same distance as he was shooting. He asked me about the weapon. I handed it to him and told him to fire a mag full. At first he had no idea how to operate it, and tried firing without taking it off safety. I showed him and he fired it. His group size was instantly cut in half, and he had a huge smile on his face, as if to ask "where have you been all my life?" I got the feeling he wished his department would authorize him to carry a 1911.

 

[Jamie C.]

iiibdsiil wrote:
...I betcha half of the people in this thread, provided they HAD to use their weapon, would screw up something....

And I'll bet you're right...

I'll also bet that the half that screws up will be predominantly comprised of DAO users/carriers.

( Sorry... I couldn't resist... )


J.C.

 

[TimboKhan]

The Las Vegas officer had a Beretta. She did not have a Glock. The DEA agent who was "the only one qualified that he knew of" had the Glock.

Really? I went and watched the link, and it just looks flat and so I always assumed it was a Glock. Well, since there is some doubt to this, I officially withdraw that example, although I could point out that if it were a 92, she could have done that in double action.

 

[Justin]

As an unabashed trigger snob, I'm just going to go ahead and register my vociferous disagreement of opinion and leave it at that.

 

[TestPilot]

It's all about probability.
Probability of damage by you unintentionally firing the gun on SA mode versus the probability of damage by you not hitting the opponent with DAO trigger's longer and heavier trigger pull.
If the former is higher than the later,DAO might be good for you.

I use a DAK trigger the P229R DAK has.
But,the reason why I use DAK is not because it's a DAO. The medium pressire trigger DAK has makes it easier for me to accurately fire the first shot compared to regular DAO or DA/SA which have a heavy pressure DA trigger.

 

[SSN Vet]

two things made this thread worth reading....

1. The Real Hawkeye's Jeff Cooper story
...dangerous? ... "you damn betcha" ..... I love it!!

2. Vegas video.....what a ditz....she almost shot her partner!!!
I wish I could hear what he said to her..
"put your #$^$$ gun away you #$&&**"
looked like she was going to shoot herself as she "confidently" re-holstered.


as far as the charging bull at 21'......
I'm either swingin' or side steppin' off the line....cause I certainly can't draw that fast....
(and it aint because I carry DAO with the manual safety on, either)

 

[Walkalong]

non DAO guns on the market have one or more safeties because they need them...They go off accidentally that’s why the manufacturer put one (OR MORE) safeties on the gun!!! That wouldn’t happen with a DAQ.

They go off when you pull the trigger, just like a DAO gun. Thus they are safer. Both will go off if you pull the trigger, but a single action with a safety has an added measure of safety.

 

[Maximum1]

doubleg wrote “DAO theory has just been disproved.”

Doubleg can you provide the data behind this statement that DAO theory has just been disproved? The reports I’ve read through web research (from FBI site and other Authoritative sites) plus two recent books (one entitled "Personal Defense") list countless cases where the “shooter” who was simply trying to protect themselves inadvertently fired their non-DAO firearm and were held both criminally liable and socially liable ($$$).

Data please….

 

[Black Majik]

Originally posted by: Maximum1
The reports I’ve read through web research (from FBI site and other Authoritative sites) plus two recent books (one entitled "Personal Defense") list countless cases where the “shooter” who was simply trying to protect themselves inadvertently fired their non-DAO firearm and were held both criminally liable and socially liable ($$$).

Uhh... you too. Data please. You've still yet to provide any facts in your posts, only strong opinions.

 

[hso]

1.5 sec.???

Using a 1911 format alloy frame pistol my times from buzzer to 5th round of 230 grain .45 on target range consistantly from 1.5 to 1.23 sec. That's starting with the safety on in the pancake holster at 5 o'clock.

In a recent class, ~20 people were all under 1 sec with 1911s. several folks were .85 seconds from buzzer to bang. One fellow was .6 sec from buzzer to bang! All from the holster with the safety on.

There are a lot of errors in the OP with the "go off accidentally" and the slow down being the most glaring.

As others have said, it's the software not the hardware. Training tells.

 

[TimboKhan]

list countless cases where the “shooter” who was simply trying to protect themselves inadvertently fired their non-DAO firearm and were held both criminally liable and socially liable ($$$).

Dude, seriously, you make it sound as if DAO guns have never been fired inadvertently. In other words, that sentence you just wrote essentially says that if a DAO gun was fired inadvertently, the person would not be held socially or criminally liable. Further, gunnies know that you don't really need a safety on a non-DAO gun, juries do not. I would guess that the second the jury heard that the awful handgun didn't have a safety, they would eat you for lunch. Thats just a guess, but I suspect that I am not far off.

 

[never_summer]

man i feel sorry for that DEA agent because there is like 20 videos of him on youtube. I would go with hso on this that training can make the difference

 

[arnie08515]

i have a p-990 DAO walther and that thing is incredibly accurate. I mean its like shooting a revolver where you really have to do all the things rights like trigger action, sight picture, and breath control. I am accurate with that thing as much as with my p99c - as. I like DOA as something different. no safties, no levers, just pull trigger and shoot.

 

[Rotorflyr]

Ayoob noted that DA/SA shooters tended to do much better with their second shots than their firsts, the long draw of the DA trigger throwing things off.

So sure, you can argue that DAO is safer to carry, but based on the same source material, it can be argued that people tend to be poorer shots with it.

It may be true that the DA/SA shooters are better with their second shot's then their first, however that doesn't necessarily hold true to DAO shooters.

One of the reasons a lot of LE Departments have changed to DAO is to keep trigger pulls the same with each shot as it was found that officers were "throwing away" their first shot for the lighter SA pull, this doesn't tend to happen with a DAO as the second pull will be the same as the first which apparently cuts down on the instances of them rushing the first shot. One of the main reasons they tend to shy away from SA is cause the whole "cocked" hammer thing tends to scare the sheep, not because it isn't safe.
None of which is relevant to a non leo with a CHL by the way.

Putting all that aside, I wouldn't say any one type of trigger is "better" then the next for carry, as when the it hits the fan, your going to react as you trained no matter what the system and when it comes to a trial (be it criminal or civil) the lawyers on both sides will use any argument they can to try and sway a jury to find in favor of them, so I wouldn't sweat it either way.
Carry the system you like/use best, hope you never need to use it, and train with it like you will.

 

[FJC]

I think it purely has to do with your training and what you practice with, and what you regularly carry.

I routinely switch between pocket and IWB carry. All my pocket guns (642, Seecamp, Rohrbaugh) are DAO. I've decided that for *me*, it's best if I carry a DAO-style pistol when carrying IWB. Why? So that everything works the same. In the adreneline-filled aftermath if I'm ever in a shooting (God forbid!), I don't want to have to think, "do I need to decock, or put a safety on, or what?!?". I want all my *carry* guns to work the same.

I still buy and love 1911's. And I own and love DA/SA pistols. I've just decided that for *me*, standardizing on one style of operation for carry is best...

 

[Alerion]

I think it purely has to do with your training and what you practice with, and what you regularly carry.

I routinely switch between pocket and IWB carry. All my pocket guns (642, Seecamp, Rohrbaugh) are DAO. I've decided that for *me*, it's best if I carry a DAO-style pistol when carrying IWB. Why? So that everything works the same. In the adreneline-filled aftermath if I'm ever in a shooting (God forbid!), I don't want to have to think, "do I need to decock, or put a safety on, or what?!?". I want all my *carry* guns to work the same.

Pretty much my feelings. Since I carry different guns depending on conditions (primarily determined by cover garments) I feel that if I can't carry the same gun I can at least carry guns that all function the same. I've seen too many people on the range pull the trigger two or three times with no results before they realize (or someone tells them) that their safety is on.

One of the reasons a lot of LE Departments have changed to DAO is to keep trigger pulls the same with each shot ...

Just for information purposes, I became a police officer about 30 years ago. At that time we were required to carry either a Colt or S&W, .357 mag, 4", double action revolver. Aside from that, we could pretty much get whatever we wanted. Anyway, both on duty and when we qualified, we were only allowed to fire double action. (Keep in mind that a revolver only fires single action if the hammer is manually cocked.) The idea was that in a high-stress situation it would be too easy to have an AD with the much lighter SA trigger pull. Given the tendency of most people to "take up" a little bit on a double action shot I'd have to say the concern was probably valid. I'll agree that it still comes down to what you train with but if you own guns with different functioning safeties you'd better do most of your training with ones that all operate the same. (let's see, do I push down with my thumb, up with my thumb, up with my trigger finger inside the guard, behind the guard???)

BTW, I think Steyr has the perfect solution to a manual safety. It's basically a bar that lowers inside the trigger guard above your trigger finger. All you have to do is raise your finger slightly and it's off. The only drawback to it is that every time I take the gun to the range I wind up pulling the trigger two or three times before I figure out why the gun isn't firing. Point actually being that, even though it should be a great system, the Steyr is the only gun I own that works that way. Since I shoot the Steyr rarely that strength becomes it's greatest weakness as well. Switching back and forth between a 1911 and a Beretta can be fun too. If I do carry a gun with a manual safety, it's always a "sweep left thumb down" type. So that pretty much rules out the Berettas although they are nice to shoot.

[Babble]OFF[/Babble]

Tom

 

[browningguy]

You guys are getting all fired up about a guy that read some stuff on the internet and in a book. He obviously has no real experience with pistolcraft so why bother with it, let's talk about something interesting.

 

[SWMAN]

A DAO is a good legal defense pistol to have if you go to court for shooting someone. However, a DAO, or at least the ones I've shot, (semi-autos) have a long reset on them. That's why I carry DAs or SAOs or a S&W snubbie.

As for Massad Ayoob,

" I think it is important to note that in "Combat Handgunnery" he makes precisely no claim to the fact that DAO's are any better than SA or SA/DA guns. In fact, Mas Ayoob has consistently recommended guns that are either SA or SA/DA. I don't think he is all that worried about wrongful deaths simply because your not packing a DAO.",

he seems to change his opinion on guns and legal issues over time. My last readings of him seem to lean towards carrying DAOs as best if your legally invovled in a self-defense shooting. After all, most police departments want their LEOs to carry DAOs for legal defense purposes. If they worried about their officers being able to defend themselves with adequate firepower per unit of time, they'd have them carry 1911s.