Data Help take 2

[Metalman1]

THR,
I believe I owe the reloaders of THR an apology for my comments made in my earlier post. I should have sat back, taken a deep breath and thought about what was said instead of reacting in a way unbecoming a fellow reloader. For this I am sorry. Below is how I should have written my post.
I am not sure of a Power Pistol handload for Xtreme plated 124 gr RN bullets for my CZ-75B 9mm. I've look at 4 different manuals and some web sites for load data. That info told me to use mid range jacketed loads and not to exceed a velocity 1200 fps. My math shows me a mim load of 5.13 and a max load of 5.76 using Power Pistol Powder with a OAL 1.125. I'm told using 5.6 grains of PP gives me a muzzle velocity of around 1034 fps. Does this mean I can use a higher load to give me a higher velocity? Something tells me no using the OAL 1.125.
Anyway thanks again for the info and for watching my back.

 

[Walkalong]

The Alliant site isn't very helpful as they only show PP with the 124 Gr GD. It gives 6.4 Grs as max giving 1157 FPS @ 1.200 OAL. (HP)

- 10% is 5.76 Grs. So it gives us a start of 5.7 Grs and a max of 6.4 Grs.

I would be comfortable loading the 124 Gr plated RN at a 1.130 to 1.135 OAL and using the 5.7 starting charge and work up from there. Maybe up to 6.0 Grs or even a bit more if I felt comfortable with it.

 

[jwrowland77]

I've never used PP, but if I did, and was doing a workup, I'd use the 5.7-6.2 range. Granted though, most the time, I pick a middle of the road load, on the low side and run with it. Most my pistol shooting is just for fun. No competing here in pistol.

I generally run a long OAL with my RN at 1.150, but not every pistol is the same. I like the room for error though, with 9mm being a high pressure round.

You should be able to run a hotter load than 5.76 though. Only true way is to get them over a chronograph.

X-treme are rated at 1200fps right?

I generally use Berrys HBRN thick plate rates for 1500, so I'm a bit unsure of x-treme

 

[Walkalong]

The X-Treme can take every bit of 1200 FPS.

I am only pushing the Berrys HBRN to 1300ish FPS. 1500 FPS is smoking.

 

[jwrowland77]

Yes it is. I don't push them fast at all. My pistol shooting is mainly just practice in form for CC. I load them light so my wife enjoys it as well and my oldest daughter can shoot them. My Autocomp load is at the min and shoots great. It's slow going but fun. Lol

 

[Metalman1]

I thought that with the 124gr plated, you should not go over the mid range.
Is this not true? Mid range would be 5.7 or 5.8. Jacketed bullet loads are 5.7 to 6.4. Is this true?

 

[jwrowland77]

I generally go by the fps or there abouts. I normally don't load hit enough to even get close anyway with pistols.

 

[grubbylabs]

Some that you will learn over time is that a small portion of reloading data is suggestive. OAL being one of those. For example, most experienced rifle hand loaders load to one of to OAL. They either load to magazine length or they load to a measured distance of the lands to increase accuracy.

You can also do this with hand guns. Except you loading a OAL to fit your gun. Google plunk test and you will see how to do it.

When using a bullet not made by a manufacture who publishes loading data, you also have to get a feel for it. I don't buy hand gun bullets any more. But when I first started loading, I picked up some plated bullets and did not have any problems loading them to published specs.

The other issue with bullets made by companies other than those who publish data is that there is no data for that particular bullet. This is where having multiple load manuals come in real handy. I cast my own bullets from custom molds so their is no data for them either. So many people in this situation start with the lowest starting charge and work up the load till it meats their criteria.

And yes sometimes you will have a hand full of rounds that don't function your pistole properly. And you have to watch out for squibs. Do a quick search here for that and you can read up on it.

I usually load 5-10 bullets at .5 grain or less increments depending on what cartridge I am doing load development for. I use a sharpie to mark my rounds. Then go shoot and record the load that works best for me.

we might bust your chops a little and you might come across one or two less than friendly members, but this is by far the best and most knowledgable group of hand loaders on any forum. The only other forum that's this good is the castboolits forum.

Remember we might bust your chops a little, but no question is a dumb question. The mods here do a pretty good job of keeping people in line. And very few of our members need supervision.

 

[Metalman1]

Grubbylabs:
I did a plunk test when I first got my CZ-75b. It sounded loud and crisp at 1.170. So how do you find a load for that OAL? The best bullet for a CZ is a Round Nose. Maybe I should use Power Pistol for jacketed bullets and use my Win 231 and LongShot for the plated.
Thanks for the help.

 

[grubbylabs]

Start at starting and work up till you find the sweet spot, or to the point it's obvious that bullet/powder/gun combo is not going to work out.

As you progress and try different powders you will learn which ones work best for you. I personally don't like Power Pistol, I think it's a little to snappy felling. But it's a really popular powder.

I find the OAL that is going to work in my gun, then I find the lowest starting charge and work up from their. I look in all my books and check the mfg's web site. Advertised velocities are merely informative. It is highly unlikely you will get the same velocities with your firearm.

Also, not all bullets of a given weight are equal. Just because Hornady lists data for a given weight of bullet and company X sells a bullet of the same weight does not mean they are identical. Jacket/plating/plain lead is all going to creat different levels of friction, which will impact pressure. How far you have to seat the bullet to achieve a functioning COAL is going have a big impact as well. Lots to think about.

While you have to follow certain rules and guidelines, this is not complicated. Don't over think it.

 

[Metalman1]

Grubbylab:
So if my pistols plunk test works a 1.150 then I should start my load work up with the min load and work my way up using 1.150 OAL? All my factory bought ammo OAL is always between 1.142 to 1.154 OAL with no problems.

 

[grubbylabs]

What does the book list for your OAL? If that is close then yes.

What I mean is. The book might list a certain OAL for a given profile, they get the length from taking into consideration SAMMI specks and pressure from the round. It has to fit the chamber and feed reliable while not creating to much pressure. Also enough of the bullet has to remain in the case to provide sufficient neck tension.

So if your OAL is within reason of what the book shows and the round feeds and chambers properly, your safe to start load development.

 

[Walkalong]

Do the plunk test to find out the max that bullet and your barrel can be loaded to. Now you know what you have to limit yourself to. It can be loaded to any OAL below that which will function 100% and not be way under the OAL used in the data. Longer than the published OAL is good because it lowers pressures (Assuming both are RN or HP etc bullets) A bit shorter than the published OAL is OK, but realize it will increase pressure.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=506678

 

[LeftyTSGC]

You have to remember that each bullet is different and the Plunk test needs to be applied everytime you change bullets.

Also, remember it is not the OAL as in total height (unless your talking magazine, feed) but where that OAL of each type of bullet puts the Ogive that effects where it hits the lands.

So what you really need is to find the distance from the Headspace to the lands and set your Ogive to that or .10 -.30 less

 

[Potatohead]

The Alliant site isn't very helpful

+1 to that.
What a horrible site for data. Just terrible. And they just list max loads IIRC, which could potentially be dangerous if someone were to not read the fine print..

Good on you for the apology Metalman. We aint mad atcha. I had a few hard knocks myself when I joined THR, got flamed a couple times. There's a few approaches that will earn a poster an immediate flaming. I found a couple of em. For some reason I dont much give a rip if I get flamed out in the other forums or subforums, but it bothers me a bit if Ive rubbed someone the wrong way in the Reloading forum..there's just more respect in here for some reason.

I think the folks in the Reloading section are very concerned for other handloaders' safety (and also concerned with making sure a loader doesn't bring bad publicity onto the hobby/sport by blowing something up). Just thinkin out loud here.

 

[Walkalong]

I wouldn't go so far as terrible (After all it is free), but other powder sites do a better job IMHO.

Considering how popular Power Pistol is, I was just surprised to see only one 124 Gr bullet with PP data. Strange.

 

[Potatohead]

Fair enough.

There's a few like that there. I cant remember what it was I was trying to find one day but it was pretty sad. And they act like Herco is their red headed stepchild. I think theyve disowned it , on the site anyway.

 

[Metalman1]

Thanks everyone. I have to take all this in and compare it to what I was doing. It does sound like most of what I was doing was on track.
I'll get back to you all later.

 

[Metalman1]

View attachment 201909

Ok, this is what I have. All cartridges plunk just fine. In both pictures the barrel on the left is from my CZ 75b and the one on the right is from my Beretta PX-4 Storm. Both are 9mm. In picture one, reloads, both rounds are 1.150 OAL. In picture two, factory, both rounds are 1.152 OAL. They all chamber and eject just fine yet the plunk test says the cartridge is not right. I have cases that measure from .740 to .752 and the plunk test picture is the same. :banghead:
I want to say this is the way it is with these pistols, but if it's not can anyone explain? Like I said all rounds have fired great except for two stove pipes.
Time to put pistols together and watch some TV.
I can't seem to get two attachments posted. Anyway both photos look the same. If I figure out how to attach a second photo I will add it.
Can't do it.
Hell being a newbie.

 

[Metalman1]

Seems I can't add an attachment to a post. I will add pictures when I figure this out or can someone help please.

 

[Potatohead]

First "go advanced".

 

[Potatohead]

Then click the attachment icon next to the smilies. Then, I like to maximize the window that appears.

 

[Potatohead]

Then click "browse" in the upper left corner. This will allow you to browse for the file on your computer that you are trying to attach. When you find the file you want, double click it. The name of the file should then appear to the right of where you originally clicked "browse".

 

[Potatohead]

Now, on the right side of the screen, straight across from browse, click "upload".

 

[Potatohead]

Then click "close window" on the attachment screen. You may want to "preview post".

It should now be attached. Dont know if this is the right way, but it's the way I do it.