Data on Tazer induced deaths being suppressed
- Thread starter wacki
- Start date
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quote:Houston P.D. has placed a moratorium on the use of Tazers for 6 months or a year while a study is done. They have had too many problems with them. They seem to feel like the LEO's are too quick to use them also.
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It is about time. Let us hope the study is an independant one and non-biased...not some junk-science study done by T aser Corporation
..and whats this?? suppression of t a s er safety?? That doesn't surprise me.
Kola
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It is about time. Let us hope the study is an independant one and non-biased...not some junk-science study done by T aser Corporation
..and whats this?? suppression of t a s er safety?? That doesn't surprise me.
Kola
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Notch
Member
When someone says, that a person who is tazered should prefer it to a gunshot, they are accepting the TV show version of tazer use. The use of Tazers has turned many into the heavy handed. Just judging from MOST of the clips we see in the news or the web, the tazered people did not present a risk of death to the officer, more likely a risk of being punched or hit. Now, I hate to hear of officers getting killed in the line of duty (and very few of these occurances hapen in a situation in which a tazer could have been used) but as far as getting into a physical encounter in which two or more officers end up getting in a tussle with a BG, sorry, thats your job. If you cant or are unwilling to do so, change jobs. 160 some odd deaths in less than 10 years... I believe that you would have far less permanant dissabilities caused by a shot to disarm or the like ( of course this brings up the problem of many POs taking little interest in mastering one of thier own tools ). The difference is that a cop will think twice about shooting you where as he will tazer you with uter dissregard. Naysayers can explain to me why we are hearing about 6, 7, 8 year olds being tazered. ( or, were they were really big kids...
).
Once again I hate to hear of cops being killed. I dont give a damn if one gets a black eye or bloody nose. If the ease and safety of the PD becomes a bigger issue than the people they are there to protect, where will we end up? Cops driving around in armored vehicles knocking people out through their gun ports based soley on probable cause?
As long as someone is using these lethal weapons on children, OR grabbing their firearm and killing someone when they "think" they are grabbing their tazer ( I think this only happens in the south though) we need to look more closely into the use of these deadly weapons.
BTW... Only an idiot would listen to studies or stats put out by the people manufacturing the object in question. I mean... Thats just head up the ass stupid.
).Once again I hate to hear of cops being killed. I dont give a damn if one gets a black eye or bloody nose. If the ease and safety of the PD becomes a bigger issue than the people they are there to protect, where will we end up? Cops driving around in armored vehicles knocking people out through their gun ports based soley on probable cause?
As long as someone is using these lethal weapons on children, OR grabbing their firearm and killing someone when they "think" they are grabbing their tazer ( I think this only happens in the south though) we need to look more closely into the use of these deadly weapons.
BTW... Only an idiot would listen to studies or stats put out by the people manufacturing the object in question. I mean... Thats just head up the ass stupid.
In situations where the taser is used, the alternatives are worse.
Rolling around on the ground with an out-of-his-mind BG can lead to the officer's gun being grabbed and someone shot and killed.
Batons and flashlights are not a good option, since permanent injury is a good possibility and it is usually perceived as 'police brutality' when used.
The remaining options are shoot the BG from a safe distance, or just let him go and arrest him at a later date.
While not perfect, the taser is under certain situations the best alternative legally, morally, and tactically.
Rolling around on the ground with an out-of-his-mind BG can lead to the officer's gun being grabbed and someone shot and killed.
Batons and flashlights are not a good option, since permanent injury is a good possibility and it is usually perceived as 'police brutality' when used.
The remaining options are shoot the BG from a safe distance, or just let him go and arrest him at a later date.
While not perfect, the taser is under certain situations the best alternative legally, morally, and tactically.
From what I've seen on COPS tv show (sure, perhaps not an accurate sampling) it appears that some cops use it way too soon, way too often. One show they were dealing with an obese obnoxious female who was drunk. She was tazed for not following instructions. This part may have been justified.
But the woman collapsed on the sidewalk instantly and was wailing and crying and the officer commanded her to stop and get up. "I don't want to have to Taze you again!" He hit her with it again within seconds of the command. It was apparent she was in a lot of pain and confusion, not realizing what was happening to her when he hit her the second time. I was actually appalled by the display. This woman was not a threat at this point and he was Tazing her just because he could. I have seen other instances where some officers immediately go for the Tazer and seem to enjoy using it at the slightest provocation.
Tazers can be very useful, to be sure. They can also be abused.
But the woman collapsed on the sidewalk instantly and was wailing and crying and the officer commanded her to stop and get up. "I don't want to have to Taze you again!" He hit her with it again within seconds of the command. It was apparent she was in a lot of pain and confusion, not realizing what was happening to her when he hit her the second time. I was actually appalled by the display. This woman was not a threat at this point and he was Tazing her just because he could. I have seen other instances where some officers immediately go for the Tazer and seem to enjoy using it at the slightest provocation.
Tazers can be very useful, to be sure. They can also be abused.
quote:She was tazed for not following instructions. This part may have been justified.
Zenner, explain why you think it was justified.Kola
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scenario:
Kola is mowing his lawn on his property.
goon-cop: Kola let me see you ID
Kola: excuse me sir?
goon-cop: I SAID..LET'S SEE YOUR ID
Kola: Sir, I have done nothing and I am a law abiding citizen. May I ask the reason for me showing you my ID?
Goon-cop: Show me ID or I will ta z e you.
....if kola didnt show ID he could have been tazed..yes?
Kola: Here is my ID officer although I believe you are conducting yourself in a wrongful manner.
...what do you think would happen next? possible ta z e? yeah.
so Kola gives in and shows his ID.
Goon-cop: Spit out your gum, Kola
Kola: Why officer?
Goon-cop: I said SPIT OUT THE F_ING GUM!!
Kola: No sir
ZAPPP...Tased
Goon-cop: Now get up punk
Kola: I can't I am very weak sir
Goon-cop: Get up or you will get it again
Kola: I can't sir
zappppppppppp
finally Kola gets to his feet
goon-cop: Now go in the house and get me some water, a cold glass of water
Kola: what??
Goon cop: You want more of this??? (shows tas er)
Kola fetches him water
goon-cop: now kiss my feet Kola
Kola: sir?
goon cop: Are you refusing the request of an officer
Kola: Yes I am sir, this is not...
zappppppp
Goon-cop: get up Kola and put your hands behind your back
Kola: what am I being charge with?
Goon cop: put your hands behind your back I said
Kola: sir you are refusing my request..what is the charge?
Goon-cop...zapppppppppppp
goon cop: YOU are resisting arrest
Kola: Sir, I have made a request to find out what you are aressting me for.
goon cop: you want some more of this??
Kola: You are illegally detaining me sir and it is unlawful
gooncop: tell it to a judge...zapppppppppppp
goon-cop: Now get up and sing old mc donald.
Kola: Are you detaining me?
goon-cop: is your wife good looking?
Kola: whats your name officer and what precinct are you with
goon-cop: shut up and give me your money
Kola: No sir
goon-cop calls for back up..in need of assistance..combative man
..more goon-cops come t a s er him and cuff him
police report: refusing request of an officer, resisting arrest and endangering a police officer.
I do not think that people need to give in to every request an officer makes. If we even question it (politely) many officers are quick to take aggressive action. This is wrong. We are unable to ask questions and get a respectful answer.
What happened to the days of friendly cops? Cops who gave you warnings? Cops who took the time to explain things. What happen to the cops who treated people with respect? Where are they? Even here in this forum one can see the venomous nature of LEO's. Is seems to be a new breed either by design or a reflection of new breeds coming into a more violent world. Many of people in LE are poor representatives to uphold law and justice.
what happened to "protect and serve"?
who are the LEO protecting? themselves only?
who are they serving? themselves, once again.
the phrase "protect and serve" is now "harm and dictate".
Kola
Zenner, explain why you think it was justified.Kola
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scenario:
Kola is mowing his lawn on his property.
goon-cop: Kola let me see you ID
Kola: excuse me sir?
goon-cop: I SAID..LET'S SEE YOUR ID
Kola: Sir, I have done nothing and I am a law abiding citizen. May I ask the reason for me showing you my ID?
Goon-cop: Show me ID or I will ta z e you.
....if kola didnt show ID he could have been tazed..yes?
Kola: Here is my ID officer although I believe you are conducting yourself in a wrongful manner.
...what do you think would happen next? possible ta z e? yeah.
so Kola gives in and shows his ID.
Goon-cop: Spit out your gum, Kola
Kola: Why officer?
Goon-cop: I said SPIT OUT THE F_ING GUM!!
Kola: No sir
ZAPPP...Tased
Goon-cop: Now get up punk
Kola: I can't I am very weak sir
Goon-cop: Get up or you will get it again
Kola: I can't sir
zappppppppppp
finally Kola gets to his feet
goon-cop: Now go in the house and get me some water, a cold glass of water
Kola: what??
Goon cop: You want more of this??? (shows tas er)
Kola fetches him water
goon-cop: now kiss my feet Kola
Kola: sir?
goon cop: Are you refusing the request of an officer
Kola: Yes I am sir, this is not...
zappppppp
Goon-cop: get up Kola and put your hands behind your back
Kola: what am I being charge with?
Goon cop: put your hands behind your back I said
Kola: sir you are refusing my request..what is the charge?
Goon-cop...zapppppppppppp
goon cop: YOU are resisting arrest
Kola: Sir, I have made a request to find out what you are aressting me for.
goon cop: you want some more of this??
Kola: You are illegally detaining me sir and it is unlawful
gooncop: tell it to a judge...zapppppppppppp
goon-cop: Now get up and sing old mc donald.
Kola: Are you detaining me?
goon-cop: is your wife good looking?
Kola: whats your name officer and what precinct are you with
goon-cop: shut up and give me your money
Kola: No sir
goon-cop calls for back up..in need of assistance..combative man
..more goon-cops come t a s er him and cuff him
police report: refusing request of an officer, resisting arrest and endangering a police officer.
I do not think that people need to give in to every request an officer makes. If we even question it (politely) many officers are quick to take aggressive action. This is wrong. We are unable to ask questions and get a respectful answer.
What happened to the days of friendly cops? Cops who gave you warnings? Cops who took the time to explain things. What happen to the cops who treated people with respect? Where are they? Even here in this forum one can see the venomous nature of LEO's. Is seems to be a new breed either by design or a reflection of new breeds coming into a more violent world. Many of people in LE are poor representatives to uphold law and justice.
what happened to "protect and serve"?
who are the LEO protecting? themselves only?
who are they serving? themselves, once again.
the phrase "protect and serve" is now "harm and dictate".
Kola
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Kola, I was being delicate when I said her initial Tazing may have been justified. I was trying to avoid an overreaction from fellow posters that might think I am against all use of Tazers. I don't know currently what LEO training is regarding their use.
There is a place for Tazers. There is a chance they are being overused however. That is my point.
There is a place for Tazers. There is a chance they are being overused however. That is my point.
I don't believe anyone has ever died from being tazered. After all it's just a minor jolt of electricity. I think people die from complications caused by the jolt of electricity/tazer.
It's like people don't die from bullets. They die from the trauma, blood loss, destruction of internal organs and shock caused by the bullets.
It's just a matter of time before enough deaths are finally associated with Tazers and lawsuits will shut down the Tazer corp. That's why I won't buy stock in that company at all. It's just a matter of time.
It's like people don't die from bullets. They die from the trauma, blood loss, destruction of internal organs and shock caused by the bullets.
It's just a matter of time before enough deaths are finally associated with Tazers and lawsuits will shut down the Tazer corp. That's why I won't buy stock in that company at all. It's just a matter of time.
Lone_Gunman
Member
I hope the owners of Taser International have their money hidden in an offshore bank somewhere. Otherwise, one day, it will all belong to a rich class-action attorney.
Stevie-Ray
Member
I've found that in my city the older cops are the friendly ones. (maybe 5-10 years younger than me to my age or older) Many young ones are the ones you describe. Not all, mind you, but many. I've had to deal with many with the gun permit ritual before I had a CPL. Most young ones that I dealt with were genuine smart-asses. Virtually all of the older guys I dealt with were pleasant, talkative, extremely helpful. Almost as though many years of seasoning are required. Or we are in deep doodoo in this city through attrition.
cassandrasdaddy
Member
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2006
- Messages
- 4,206
lol
"50 freak,
I just started reading about ta z er related deaths today.
There have been at least 2 that were reported by a coroner examination. Direct cause of death: electrocution form Ta s er."
for a guy who just started reading about em you were a lil long on opinion short on research weren't ya? care to post a link mto the 2 coroners reports? i think i know the 2 you are talking about and believe at best you mispoke or were mistaken in interpretation.
been tazed twice wasn't fun but not that bad. got lots worse working on ac systems and panel boxes
"50 freak,
I just started reading about ta z er related deaths today.
There have been at least 2 that were reported by a coroner examination. Direct cause of death: electrocution form Ta s er."
for a guy who just started reading about em you were a lil long on opinion short on research weren't ya? care to post a link mto the 2 coroners reports? i think i know the 2 you are talking about and believe at best you mispoke or were mistaken in interpretation.
been tazed twice wasn't fun but not that bad. got lots worse working on ac systems and panel boxes
Lone_Gunman
Member
I would guess though to the people who died it was a little more than "not fun".
[email protected]
Member
You guys have convinced me... they're too dangerous... we've got to ban the Taser... we have to do it for the children!!! 
Blaming an inanimate object and the company that makes it for bad behavior... this sounds awfully familiar to me...
DanO
Blaming an inanimate object and the company that makes it for bad behavior... this sounds awfully familiar to me...
DanO
Ohioan
Member
I've watched lots of episodes of Cops and other cop themed police shows. I know a member of a local SWAT team. another friend is just graduating from the police academy. My girlfriends mother is associated with another cities police department.
Tasers, are not always used in lieu of firearms. They are often used instead of striking a rowdy perp. Which, in my opinion, is better. Give the guy a shock, but don't hit him. Hitting is so personal and involves a lot of emotion. It's better for the police officer to keep emotions low. Tasers keep police officers safe from crack heads and guys who think they're going to take on the world. That's a good thing... BUT
Westerville police department tased a high school student who streaked through the school. Was that necessary? I don't think so. High school kids are punks. I'm a teacher, I know. The school this was at is a high income district. Chances of having a true thug are lower. If you show a high school kid you mean business, they'll back down.. eventually. They tasered this student in front of the entire school.
actually, the kid deserved it. He resisted arrest, and from the description.. he was pale, shoulder length hair, beard, very skinny and appeared to be sweating profusely..... (sounds like a crack head to me)
You don't know how many times I wish I had a taser on me at school.... or at least a cattle prod.
http://www.10tv.com/?sec=news&story=sites/10tv/content/pool/200701/1297361518.html
Tasers, are not always used in lieu of firearms. They are often used instead of striking a rowdy perp. Which, in my opinion, is better. Give the guy a shock, but don't hit him. Hitting is so personal and involves a lot of emotion. It's better for the police officer to keep emotions low. Tasers keep police officers safe from crack heads and guys who think they're going to take on the world. That's a good thing... BUT
Westerville police department tased a high school student who streaked through the school. Was that necessary? I don't think so. High school kids are punks. I'm a teacher, I know. The school this was at is a high income district. Chances of having a true thug are lower. If you show a high school kid you mean business, they'll back down.. eventually. They tasered this student in front of the entire school.
actually, the kid deserved it. He resisted arrest, and from the description.. he was pale, shoulder length hair, beard, very skinny and appeared to be sweating profusely..... (sounds like a crack head to me)
You don't know how many times I wish I had a taser on me at school.... or at least a cattle prod.
http://www.10tv.com/?sec=news&story=sites/10tv/content/pool/200701/1297361518.html
TCB in TN
Member
It's just electricity! Hey what could possibly go wrong? After all it's not like the body uses elictricity to control your bodily functions or anything. But seriously, on the "average" tazers are probably no big deal. High voltage with a low amperage, hurts a lot if you are of average size, health, and are not abused with it, but for folks who have poor health, such as heart problems, or certain neurological issues, just about any jolt of electricity can be a very bad thing. Not to mention the issues raised when it is abused.
On a semi related note, this weekend my nephew (17) who is training with the local fire dept./rescue squad played in a charity basketball game with those guys against the local City PD. Late in the game the PD are losing on the score board and several of them just lose it. A couple end up getting kicked out for cussing and screaming, and threatening the FD/RS guys. Seeing crap like that certainly instills a load of confidence in the PD's ability to "Serve and Protect". Judging from their actions (not the first time several of these guys have showed their true colors) they don't need to be loose on the street unsupervised, much less out there with a Tazer and a Gun.
But seriously, on the "average" tazers are probably no big deal. High voltage with a low amperage, hurts a lot if you are of average size, health, and are not abused with it, but for folks who have poor health, such as heart problems, or certain neurological issues, just about any jolt of electricity can be a very bad thing. Not to mention the issues raised when it is abused. On a semi related note, this weekend my nephew (17) who is training with the local fire dept./rescue squad played in a charity basketball game with those guys against the local City PD. Late in the game the PD are losing on the score board and several of them just lose it. A couple end up getting kicked out for cussing and screaming, and threatening the FD/RS guys. Seeing crap like that certainly instills a load of confidence in the PD's ability to "Serve and Protect". Judging from their actions (not the first time several of these guys have showed their true colors) they don't need to be loose on the street unsupervised, much less out there with a Tazer and a Gun.
I don't believe Tazers are a bad tool for LE use....
I think the fact LE's use them for just about anything nowadays is what worries me.
I just read a story of an LE using a tazer against a 75 year old lady visiting a nursing home....
Come-on......that's excessive in my book.
I think the fact LE's use them for just about anything nowadays is what worries me.
I just read a story of an LE using a tazer against a 75 year old lady visiting a nursing home....
Come-on......that's excessive in my book.
Just to clarify, are you suggesting cops should be taught to try to "shoot to disarm" people? Perhaps by "winging" them in the arm?
Wow, that's quite a statement. Specific examples to back up your inflamatory claim, please?
Examples of 6, 7, and 8 years olds being tasered with "uter dissregard", please? One for each age will do.
Thanks,
twency
Lone_Gunman
Member
Twency,
Here are some examples:
The tasering of a 6 yr old and 12 yr old are described here:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,138488,00.html
The tasering of a 9 yr old girl is described here:
http://www.fox11az.com/news/local/stories/KMSB-20040525-dsbp-taser.1f8073c21.html
Here are some examples:
The tasering of a 6 yr old and 12 yr old are described here:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,138488,00.html
The tasering of a 9 yr old girl is described here:
http://www.fox11az.com/news/local/stories/KMSB-20040525-dsbp-taser.1f8073c21.html
Ok, still looking for the 7 and 8 year olds. No, I'm not being pedantic, I'm asking Notch to back up the statement. Also the "uter dissregard" part. Notch makes it sound like police with tasers randomly use them on small children without provocation. And again, these comments immediately followed the ludicrous suggestion is that the real problem is that cops don't "shoot to disarm". (Shoot the gun out of his hand, Hollywood style?)
It's one thing to say that force was over-applied in a particular situation, or that the threshold before a the use of a Taser has been authorised is set too low. It's quite another to suggest that police are in the habit of tasing children willy-nilly, when they should be trying to shoot armed bad guys in the arm (with a lead bullet) instead. Seriously, reread the post I'm referencing, and particularly these sentences.:
There's a lot of hyperbole and disjointed argumentation in this thread. (I know, I know, it's THR, that's just what we do.)
-twency
Very informative taser article here, written for EMS but has good information.
http://www.jems.com/medical-clinical/jemsmagazine/13231/
and
http://www.aemj.org/cgi/content/abstract/13/6/589
I have seen people die in custody before Tasers were even invented, mostly from hyperthermia secondary to drug use; what they call "excited delirium" these days. Some of these folks are crashing long before the cops even get involved, and even with early intervention it is sometimes impossible to save their life.
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/abstract/158/12/1603
Good article about excited delirium without tasering. I'm sure that tasers will be misused just like any other nonlethal weapons are, but that doesn't make them the problem. There is a movement toward trying to break the 'excited delirium' cycle early enough to intervene, but the amount of medical education required to make this diagnosis may be problematic. At my Fire Department we are working with our local law enforcement to try and create some guidelines for dealing with these individuals, but the studies are still being done.
http://www.jems.com/medical-clinical/jemsmagazine/13231/
and
http://www.aemj.org/cgi/content/abstract/13/6/589
I have seen people die in custody before Tasers were even invented, mostly from hyperthermia secondary to drug use; what they call "excited delirium" these days. Some of these folks are crashing long before the cops even get involved, and even with early intervention it is sometimes impossible to save their life.
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/abstract/158/12/1603
Good article about excited delirium without tasering. I'm sure that tasers will be misused just like any other nonlethal weapons are, but that doesn't make them the problem. There is a movement toward trying to break the 'excited delirium' cycle early enough to intervene, but the amount of medical education required to make this diagnosis may be problematic. At my Fire Department we are working with our local law enforcement to try and create some guidelines for dealing with these individuals, but the studies are still being done.
1911 guy
Member
I'm more worried about the use than the tech.
I'm all for giving police the tools they ned to do their jobs more effectively. However, those tools, Tazers in particular, are being misused at an alarming rate now. When you can convince me that tazering old ladies and children is an O.K. thing, I'll retract the statement. It's like any other tool. It is capable of nothing but the will of the user. The attitude of some police is evident in the misuse. The "Tazer problem" is the same as the "wrong house" problem, misuse of authority and lack of respect for anyone else.
We don't tend to hear of the actual criminals who suffer permenant problems and death after being tazered because they A) usually had a tazer ride coming deservedly or B) were toked up on something that compromised the body's ability to cope. The ones that worry me more are the average Joes who get caught in the middle of a misguided or ego-tripping officer on a bad day.
I'm all for giving police the tools they ned to do their jobs more effectively. However, those tools, Tazers in particular, are being misused at an alarming rate now. When you can convince me that tazering old ladies and children is an O.K. thing, I'll retract the statement. It's like any other tool. It is capable of nothing but the will of the user. The attitude of some police is evident in the misuse. The "Tazer problem" is the same as the "wrong house" problem, misuse of authority and lack of respect for anyone else.
We don't tend to hear of the actual criminals who suffer permenant problems and death after being tazered because they A) usually had a tazer ride coming deservedly or B) were toked up on something that compromised the body's ability to cope. The ones that worry me more are the average Joes who get caught in the middle of a misguided or ego-tripping officer on a bad day.
Sergeant Sabre
Member
I think you'll find that most of your "man dies after taser is used" would more appropriately be dubbed "man dies after he ingests enourmous amounts of drugs, then goes berserk, then gets tazed". In those circumstances I think you'll find that the alternative to subduing the drugged-up out-of-control subject was seven or eight cops with batons. Just like with the drugged-up and out-of-control Rodney King, remember? How would that have ended with a taser present? I'll tell you: *Zap*, and done.
The taser is a great tool. Instead of getting physical, and risking injury to ourselves and suspect, just one *zap* and it's over. Without the tazer, we'll use OC spray and a baton. That method is not as effective as the taser in subduing a subject, and it's effects are much more lasting (and maybe permanent).
Now, I know some officer's have been a little quick with the lightning. It's usually a bad idea to zap little kids, passively-resisting protestors, and old ladies. However, if you tell somebody "you're under arrest" and they say "no, I'm not going", you have two options: 1) taser and done 2) OC spray + get physical
Lastly, the option is never 1. taser, or 2. pistol. A deadly force assualt requires a deadly force response.
The taser is a great tool. Instead of getting physical, and risking injury to ourselves and suspect, just one *zap* and it's over. Without the tazer, we'll use OC spray and a baton. That method is not as effective as the taser in subduing a subject, and it's effects are much more lasting (and maybe permanent).
Now, I know some officer's have been a little quick with the lightning. It's usually a bad idea to zap little kids, passively-resisting protestors, and old ladies. However, if you tell somebody "you're under arrest" and they say "no, I'm not going", you have two options: 1) taser and done 2) OC spray + get physical
Lastly, the option is never 1. taser, or 2. pistol. A deadly force assualt requires a deadly force response.
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