Deadly CLP --- It can kill you!

[Galco Kid]

Be careful with what lubricant you apply to your weapon, especially in harsh "powder like sand". See link for full article. Really amazing!

http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/...and=viewone&op=t&id=21&rnd=19.888845171579405

 

[dave3006]

I bet nobody debates the type of oil you use on an AK47.

 

[Bob C]

CLP, or Ballistoil, both leave quite a bit of residual oil on a weapon. I like this if I'm going to put the gun back in a sleeve and store it.

If I plan to shoot the weapon in the near future, or if it may be used for self defence, I clean the gun inside and out with Hoppe's or with M-Pro to remove this residual coating.

 

[gun-fucious]

http://www.militec1.com/

 

[mete]

Oil + sand = lapping compound. It will cause extreme wear and malfunctions. I know that even though I've never been in the desert. We played in the desert 12 years ago, didn't we learn anything ?

 

[cordex]

I am personally disgusted by how Militec has handled this situation. They may well be acting with the best of intents, but something tells me otherwise. Their whole attitude seems to be "SEE! YOU MURDERING BASTAGES! If you would only have bought Militec (tm) Brand gun care products, people who can't even keep a M2 running would have suddenly have zero problems. YOU SLAUGHTERED INNOCENT AMERICAN SOLDIERS."

Cry loud enough and people will listen, I guess. I won't do business with a company that acts like this. Miracle grease or not.

 

[BDM]

To the newbie at the top of the page do a little research before you post a topic thats already been beaten to death,First off not only did M16s jam,so di the M249,and a BROWNING.50,any oil if you use enough will attract dust compounded by the fact that these soldiers died because they did not MAINTAIN their weapons,wether clp is to thick or not the same could be said for LSA wich is also thick and used in vietnam with out a problem,oh wait poor maintenence on the M16 their too. and is the lubricant CLP replaced as far as miltech goes it is a shame when tragedy and poor maintenence is used to push your company into a government contract,especialy how they say CLP thickens in the cold,its good for 30 below zero and operators should understand how much oil to use in certain environments,to the guy who said AK47s dont need much oil even that rifle will fail eventualy if not cleaned,So lets all get off the piss pot the M16 wasnt the only weapon that failed everything they had failed go check out the link to the after action report the newbie posted its on AR15.com in that reporet is a link to how weapons and equipment performed and there was alot of positive on the M249 wich failed the 507th the M4 wich is harder to keep going than a fullsize rifle that failed the 507th and heaps of praise for the .50 Browning wich also failed the 507th,Yes the desert is harsh but the weapons didnt fail the special forces troops who broke lynch out of the hospital,it all comes down to skill,maintain the weapons you stake your life on or die because of it,rear area soldiers have a habbit of lashing their weapons with chains through the carry handles on the outside of vehicles for transport,Id like to know when these maintenence people last maintained their weapons before the convoy left that day,had the weapons been maintained and cared for they would have worked when needed.If a soldier is going to be lax and lazy in doing the things that should be done to preserve his or her life and the lives of their comrades they should go back to civilian life.There comes a time when people have to be responsible for their actions or in the 507ths case inaction when it came to maintaining weapons where are all the other reported failures there are 150,000 soldiers there and because a handful of diferent weapons failed not just the M16 we should go on a wich hunt and award a contract to a new unscrupulous company like miltec who uses this incident to ply their wares,that behavior is the same kind that threatens are right to own firearms when the antigun crowd use every incident of a shooting crime as proof we cannot be trusted with firearms,after the 86 year old guy ran down and killed 10 people in a farmers market last week lets ban the make of car he was driving or ban people over 86 altogether ..please give me a break,Break Free CLP that is ive been using it 10 years in all kinds of weather and no problems with my AR,then again I look after the weapons I expect to look after me when I need them.:banghead:

 

[Steve Smith]

BDM, very correct post!

Topic beaten to death
All guns jammed
M16 is a darn reliable gun when properly maintained
Militec's ad is in VERY poor taste.

 

[Art Eatman]

Back fifty-some years ago, before the chemlab boffins dreamed up all this wondrous, modern mouse-milk, my Uncle Joe sez to me, he sez, "You want to have just enough oil on your gun to keep it from rusting. That's pretty close to dry, ya hear?"

SFAIK, he learned that sort of thing sometime in the 1920s.

So, something's changed, in three-quarters of a century?

, Art

 

[ambidextrous1]

Good comments, BDM!

We DID have a lube problem with the M16s back in the sixties, in VN. The solution at that time was a "snake oil" called Kroil, which worked very well on the M16. GIs were writing home and asking that cans of the stuff be sent to them. Not surprisingly, the Army brass forgot that lesson; heck, it's been 40 years!

An issue not addressed in detail here is why a MAINTENANCE company can't keep their own firearms operating! That instils a lot of confidence, right?

I'll bet it was really a discipline problem, a polite way of describing leadership failure. The soldiers in the 507th were probably told that they always had to have their weapons with them, but owould never need them. Anyone who was in WWII, Korea or Vietnam knows the fallacy of that advice. I hope an inquiry is made - more than has already been made - and the discipline and preparedness of the soldiers in the 507th should be scrutinized in detail.

This would never have happened in an outfit under the command of George S. Patton, I'm willing to bet.

 

[BDM]

To STEVE,man this thread is like a reocurring nightmare,but at least bad dreams have some variation To ART,my dad a korean veteran says the same thing just enough for the metal not to rust and parts to be smooth
and to AMBIDEXTROUS:If this was under George Patton and then afterwards he would have given someone a slap and reamed out the officers in charge for not teaching the troops the right way,Hey fellas I could always start a topic on how to use spent 30mm cannon brass as an improvised latrine, although it probably wouldnt be wise to sit on.....hey there we go Ive got an idea on another use for miltec,I just hope it dont put pimples on my ???,if so ill go back to CLP.

 

[Gordon]

First tour in Nam had M-14 No problems if kept fairly dry and clean with SLIGHT internal lube. Second tour with M-16 MY outfit used a shaving brush and dry slide. When dryslide evaporated left dry film. Of course my unit went out in small teams and we could only carry so much ammo. Gun had to work and individual rounds counted!

 

[BDM]

Thanks for the insight GORDON,its always good to hear from veterans who actually used the weapon for defense,keeps us armchair commandos in line with the real facts on how the rifle performed where you carriied it.

 

[Jaywalker]

That article has the same heavy-handed tone that I used to see in 1962 when True Magazine continually posted articles about the uncaring Department of Defense continuing to issue the M-14 when any fool could see the new "plastic machinegun" (AR-15) was a better weapon. I used to wonder if the magazine owned stock in Armalite.

The newest lubricant may be better, but if the company had anything to do with this ad campaign, I'll never buy any. And I won't have to - soon someone will copy it and there'll be a "Milspeclube" to buy instead.

Jaywalker

 

[BDM]

Im with ya JAY,and then on the armalite site they recomend the old combination of bore cleaner,and LSA,Ill never buy a miltech product.

 

[Sir Galahad]

Some years back, a sales rep for Militec, hell, it may have even been the owner came into the place I worked trying to sell us on Militec. Said it'd be great for ALL power tools. Gentlemen----anyone who's owned a Skil 77 worm drive cicular saw KNOWS that the oil in the gearbox is heavy gear oil and lighter oil causes the steel worm gear to strip the brass jacksaft gear. Are you going to use, basically, 90 wt. gear oil on your AR? The Skil oil for the 77 saw is even thicker. So how can Militec be "one size fits all" oil? At the time, the rep had these photocopies of alleged military (USMC and, yep, you guessed it, Navy SEAL) reports saying how great Militec is. They looked bogus to me and I've seen PLENTY of army documents pertaining to maintenance. When we asked for actual brochures and verifiable test data, we never saw this guy again. So, let's see---Militec is good for all power tools AND firearms. It was BS then and it's BS now.

 

[Sven]

No military experience, myself, but things I've overheard for general lubrication advise from gunsmiths:

-Use just enough grease, but no more
-Thin layer at key points of metal-on-metal contact (shiney spots)
-Artist brushes can be used for precise application

...of course, paintbrushes are probably pretty scarce on the battlefield. Consult experts on your own weapon system for ideosyncrasies and specific dos and don'ts.

Perhaps we 'tuned' our weapons design / selection and maintenance toward non-desert fighting environments, and now we are adjusting. ?

Does anyone have objective, first or second-hand observations regarding

-specific weapons systems, maintained at
-various servicability standards, tested at
-various temperatres with
-varying levels of sand and/or water, whipping around at
-varying speeds?

Lots more variables to solve... and to find the answers, we need lots of guns and ammo. Why... it would take almost... an Army of engineers to find a solution that worked ideally across the maximum range of potential areas of conflict.

I'm sure folks are working on this right now... pouring sand on M16s, M14s, Berettas... and firing, over and over. In windtunnels, etc.

One would hope, anyhow. Cuz I sure ain't pouring sand onto any of my guns. And I want our team to win out there.

 

[BDM]

I went the miltec site and found a posted report from evaluations conducted with lubricants for small arms at crane navy surface warfare center the link posted at the bottom, its over 25 pages long describing salt fog spray tests and silica dust flour tests miltec is described as brand E and had many,many more failures than the clp,read the report also to the side of the site I found this.a letter to a gus fun cast at picatinny arsenal from a dave skeldon who was with a col.padgett who went to the 507th june 19th to investigate the situation here is what he said.Received june 25th.
when reading all the misinformation coming back from iraq do not beleive what you read.I dave skeldon and col.padgett were at the 507th on the 19th,what happened to their weapons was not lubricant related.Read the evaluation on lubricants by crane it is long so I will write their conclusion.


CONCLUSION AND RECCOMENDATION
Based on results of the dust test and salt fog teast,commercially available lubricants investigated did not offer any significant advantages when used in M16A1 rifles"that were new and unfired before the tests"in an environment of excessive airborne dust"the silica flour they used,dust cover open carrier locked back,empty mag in rifle muzzle cap on and dust blown at rifles from muzzle end"high teperatures and corrosive airborne salts when compared to the lubricants currently used by the navy.currently the fleet uses maintenence subsystem maintenence cards[MRCs]to lubricate small arms.MILI-L-63460D CLPis listedas a primary lubricant with VVL800Coil used as a substitute"they dont say what oil it is,but miltec is listed as brand E during tests"other lubricants have been substituted for unusualenvironment and mission specific aplications.usualy by special warfare groups.lubricants that will not wash off weapons during swimming operations[IE salt water and sand]or "no muss no fuss"lubricants for an emplaced sniper.the lubricants used are based on prior use and confidence in the special application.however for the fleet utilizing MRC cards MIL-L-63460 D CLPis an adequate lubricant for general purpose use in dusty corrosive high temperature invironments.

they recomend in the tests LAW light oil be used in winter and LSA and CLP more than adequate the miltec failed 8 times to CLPs 1 time and the milltec did not protect against rust in the fog test they exposed a bolt carrier stripped down coated with the miltec 5 hours rust on firing pin,26 hours rust on carrier,101 hours rust on 30 to 50 % of carrier,they also said in the dust test with the clp 1 failure to feed 8 for miltec,they said that the liquid based lube canceled out the friction of sand in the upper as the carrier moved and spit sand out of the upper it got smoother once it go going with the CLP,with miltec not so good.Check out the test for your selves this is the link..... the link is not working go to the miltec page and scroll down till you see the heading"FOR THE RECORD REGAURDING MIL-SPEC PERFORMANCE TESTING AND HOW IT DOES NOT RELATE TO THE REAL WORLDits over 25 pages long and done at crane. They say it dosent relate and they are right the test was harsher than what can be expected in the real environment,because the dust chamber was an 8 hour test and longer as the test went on mimicing the sand and dust that would be encountered they called it silica flour,very fine like whats in Iraq.

 

[Sven]

Links says under construction?

 

[BDM]

Its not working for me either I edited my post go to the site and scroll down you will see soldiers on chairs the link is under the heading I edited into my post above.

 

[firestar]

Back fifty-some years ago, before the chemlab boffins dreamed up all this wondrous, modern mouse-milk, my Uncle Joe sez to me, he sez, "You want to have just enough oil on your gun to keep it from rusting. That's pretty close to dry, ya hear?"

I have learned the same thing in my life. Nobody told me a lot about how much or what kind of lube to use on my guns so I went through a period of trying stuff out. What I found was that a little bit of 3-in-1 oil or Birchwood Casey gun oil (my favorite) is all you really need. If your gun requires a some kind of super grease to work, I don't think that gun is built well.

I have been using grease on my frame rails because it stays longer but I never had a problem with just plain gun oil or 3-in-1 oil.

 

[sm]

Art nailed it.

Yea I had a temporary brain fade once and played the gun lube game. I managed to be fine all those years before 'mouse milk'...oh well I'm back to what always worked before.

No military experience here, I have poured sand into various platforms - one reason I CCW what I do. I have used a 1911 in very extreme enviroments for instance, blowing sand ,wind, rain, mud, snow...

I've been known to just field strip wash in a running stream, wiped down to dry, and as Art eluded to, if I can see the lube or feel it, I used too much.

I did get a strange look once at the car wash, hunting buddy took a header and muddied up the '06, plugged the bbl but good...flushed that sucker out but good, used whatever oil in the bed of truck to wipe and hold till we got home. He took the header after getting the deer, I made carrying handles with the cleaning rod Hey, I had my gun if we spooked one getting his out. I thought that was what cleaning rods were for -handles

I musta missed that class Art