dealing with out-of-line police officers.

[Krenn]

First, let me state the following:

1. I have every respect for my local police officers in particular, and for all police in general.
2. I have never been hassled by police, nor do I ever expect to be.
3. I certainly understand that police should always be given the benifit of doubt.

However, there ARE incidences where police or federal officers have been FAR out of line. in such cases, video of the incident, along with any other usefull documentation, is certainly usefull. for instance, the police beatings in southern california.

my next PDA will have video and audio capture abilities. (probably a LOOX 720.) Should I ever encounter any situation that calls for an impecable witness, I will probably have an instant-record button mappped on the PDA.

But Here's the kicker question; under what circumstances would a citizen be justified in physically interfering with or threatening a police officer? are there ANY such circumstances? and how close to reality are the relevant laws?

 

[buzz_knox]

But Here's the kicker question; under what circumstances would a citizen be justified in physically interfering with or threatening a police officer? are there ANY such circumstances? and how close to reality are the relevant laws?

The law and reality are very different. While you are authorized in nearly every state to use force to defend another person from an unjustified attack, you will almost never be able to do so when an officer is involved because of the presumption of correctness that comes with police authority. Unless you see something that is clearly unjustified (i.e. officer sexually assaulting someone), the best plan is to be a good witness. Call 911 and say you see an assault/beating/robbery/whatever in progress. If the cop is up to no good, maybe hearing the call will call him/her down. If the cop is in the right, you won't have an issue. Do not get physically involved or even closely approach the situation.

 

[enfield303]

I'm thinkin that's a real good way to ventilated.

 

[Krenn]

So, ongoing sexual assualt WOULD be an acceptable time to intervene with a sidearm? (after starting the tape rolling, of course)

 

[buzz_knox]

So, ongoing sexual assualt WOULD be an acceptable time to intervene with a sidearm? (after starting the tape rolling, of course)

I'm not going to say yay or nay as that offered as one example (probably the only one) of a situation where there is no possible way it could be twisted around to say the officer had authority to take the action observed. What I will say is that sexual assault is one of the very, very few areas where a person can and should fight back against an officer. In pretty much every other area, submission and working it out at court is the far better option.

In this case, the most logical course of action is to bring attention to your presence while recording the event, and broadcasting it over the cell phone. That may stop the assault.

 

[molonlabe]

I'm thinkin that's a real good way to ventilated.

Gotta agree with that. Perhaps this site can offer suggestions.

http://www.policeabuse.org

 

[Nitram68]

The law and reality are very different. While you are authorized in nearly every state to use force to defend another person from an unjustified attack, you will almost never be able to do so when an officer is involved because of the presumption of correctness that comes with police authority. Unless you see something that is clearly unjustified (i.e. officer sexually assaulting someone), the best plan is to be a good witness. Call 911 and say you see an assault/beating/robbery/whatever in progress. If the cop is up to no good, maybe hearing the call will call him/her down. If the cop is in the right, you won't have an issue. Do not get physically involved or even closely approach the situation.

Excellent advice but next to impossible to follow when it's family being assulted

 

[buzz_knox]

Excellent advice but next to impossible to follow when it's family being assulted

Advice is what you offer to people in the abstract when you want them to act in their own best interest. What you do with your own life is another issue.

Trust me, being a good witness will be the last thing in my mind should that nightmare scenario arise.

 

[pete f]

Having seen a couple of cops go way overboard in my life, All i did or could do was be good witness.

Once just yelling GEEEZ DUDE ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!! was enough to disrupt the cops bubble and he pulled back, I have no idea what the guy did he was beating on, but in cuffs and on the ground behind a squad car, I do not think anyone deserves to be beaten that way.

The other time was in chicago, I was working on a condo project there and I saw a pile of blue hauling some guy out of a car, five or six cops beating kicking clubbing some guy who kept trying to crawl under the paddy wagon.
i tried to look at the different squad cars and try and write down all the ID numbers on the cars. I knew enough about Chicago to not call the IA dept but I called WMAQ and give them what I knew. They took it and ran...

Now a days, every one has a camera phone, or a video cam and that is how stuff gets caught now.

 

[Joejojoba111]

First, let me state the following:
my next PDA will have video and audio capture abilities. (probably a LOOX 720.) Should I ever encounter any situation that calls for an impecable witness, I will probably have an instant-record button mappped on the PDA.
laws?

Don't waste your money. Look at those left-wing protests. Ok, it was kind of funny, but if I was in their places it'd seem pretty bad. Cameras do not survive police encouncters, in those situations. Reality is that protest organizers are grabbed off the street by plain-clothes' and stuffed into vans hours or days before the protests happen. They can get away with this stuff.

You can't get away with stuff.

They aren't stupid, they're the best at what they do. They know the game inside and out, and they aren't going to be beat by some amateur with a digicam. You can try and be cute, record this or that, but you are going to be playing in a game stacked heavily against you.


Just for hypothetical argument, suppose you record an officer doing something bad. Suppose. This means he is a person who does bad things. (so far so good) So you have a person who does bad things, and you have something he wants, something that threatens him. He is going to do a bad thing to you.

You can't win that game, you just can't. Don't play it.

 

[NHBB]

Don't waste your money. Look at those left-wing protests. Ok, it was kind of funny, but if I was in their places it'd seem pretty bad. Cameras do not survive police encouncters, in those situations. Reality is that protest organizers are grabbed off the street by plain-clothes' and stuffed into vans hours or days before the protests happen. They can get away with this stuff.

You can't get away with stuff.

They aren't stupid, they're the best at what they do. They know the game inside and out, and they aren't going to be beat by some amateur with a digicam. You can try and be cute, record this or that, but you are going to be playing in a game stacked heavily against you.


Just for hypothetical argument, suppose you record an officer doing something bad. Suppose. This means he is a person who does bad things. (so far so good) So you have a person who does bad things, and you have something he wants, something that threatens him. He is going to do a bad thing to you.

You can't win that game, you just can't. Don't play it.

I am sure rodney king would agree with your assumption..

 

[Oleg Volk]

Recent digital cameras can upload to a remote server as you shoot. That will help with evidence but not with the damage your face would take.

I suggest not getting involved without a divine sniper team backing you up. Just note who is who and wait for the lightning to take care of the problem.

Seriously? Observe, record and plan future action at a more advantageous time. Hard to tell who is who when you come upon strangers in a fight. If your family is involved, all bets are off and my die would weigh 150 grains.

 

[pcf]

Don't waste your money. Look at those left-wing protests. Ok, it was kind of funny, but if I was in their places it'd seem pretty bad. Cameras do not survive police encouncters, in those situations. Reality is that protest organizers are grabbed off the street by plain-clothes' and stuffed into vans hours or days before the protests happen. They can get away with this stuff.

Name a person who's been grabbed off the streets days before a protest, name one. Let me guess, they were beaten, locked up in a secret jail for three days, and then released. And if they tell anyone, besides you and 48 million people on the internet the sombra negra is coming for them.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

I once saw a black dude subduing a women and trying to force her into the back of his car in a parking lot. He was struggling, and having lots of trouble. I approached and asked what was going on, at which he flashed a badge and asked me to call 911. Good thing I didn't shoot the guy.

 

[pcf]

......

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

......

And your point is....?

 

[c_yeager]

Curl into as small of a ball as you can, on your side. Lace your fingers behind your head and use your forearms to protect as much of your noggin as you can. Make as much noise as possible in order to draw witnesses, and hope for the best. It helps if you have an attorny on retainer and friends in a trauma and/or recunstructive surgery unit.

I suppose it would help if you tried to think happy thoughts, and maybe pray to the God of your choice. I will tell you that a firm knowledge of the legal code and the constitution will do very llittle to protect you.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Curl into as small of a ball as you can, on your side. Lace your fingers behind your head and use your forearms to protect as much of your noggin as you can. Make as much noise as possible in order to draw witnesses, and hope for the best. It helps if you have an attorny on retainer and friends in a trauma and/or recunstructive surgery unit.

I suppose it would help if you tried to think happy thoughts, and maybe pray to the God of your choice. I will tell you that a firm knowledge of the legal code and the constitution will do very llittle to protect you.

Sometimes, if you play dead, they will just take a sniff and walk away.

 

[Joejojoba111]

Name a person who's been grabbed off the streets days before a protest, name one. Let me guess, they were beaten, locked up in a secret jail for three days, and then released. And if they tell anyone, besides you and 48 million people on the internet the sombra negra is coming for them.

This is the first you'd heard of it? Interesting. Perhaps the news reports I read were in fact wrong.

However they were written in a slightly more professional style than your own, so I tend to give them greater credence than your petty taunts. Sorry.

I was under the impression you were involved with law enforcement in some manner, my mistake. Unless that is exactly why you subtly alter my message, with technicalities such as 72 hours, battery, and paranoia.

 

[AZRickD]

Name a person who's been grabbed off the streets days before a protest, name one. Let me guess, they were beaten, locked up in a secret jail for three days, and then released. And if they tell anyone, besides you and 48 million people on the internet the sombra negra is coming for them.

Local Phoenix libertarian activist Ernie Hancock http://www.ernesthancock.com was holding up a protest sign (probably referencing Waco) in anticipation of Janet Reno's arrival for a conference. Ernie found the back entrance were she was to off-load. Her limo kept circling the building as local Phx PD ordered Ernie off the public sidewalk. Ernie refused. They arrested him and had him in jail for about thirty minutes...long enough for Janet to avoid the sign and the cam corders. Ernie was released without charges.

You can get more details from him if you are curious.

I have a few stories of my own, but you can do a search for them here and at TFL.

Rick

 

[K-Romulus]

DC police tried the "preemptive arrest" thing

http://www.speakout.com/activism/issue_briefs/1368b-1.html

Several alternative strategies have been used to confront this new, diffuse breed of demonstrators against "systemic" injustice. In the District of Columbia, preemptive arrests were used to crack down on organizers of the demonstration. Police spent the nights before the demonstrations searching houses and gatherings for organizers of the anti-IMF rallies. The organizing center of the demonstration was shut down and many of the protestors inside were arrested for alleged fire violations. They also made mass arrests: in one instance, a block was cordoned off and about 600 people were arrested for marching without a permit. The tactic worked: by the end of the week, the movement was in disarray.

In LA, the police used somewhat different tactics. In early August, the ACLU successfully registered a complaint against the LAPD, which accused officers of illegally harassing protest organizers and spying on their headquarters. The State Supreme Court issued a writ preventing the LAPD from using preemptive arrests.

http://boston.indymedia.org/newswire/display/18791/index.php

The Partnership for Civil Justice's First Amendment litigation on behalf of demonstrators in Washington DC includes:

Alliance for Global Justice, et al v. District of Columbia, et al
- IMF/World Bank Demonstrations in April 2000
- Includes class action claim for mass arrest of over 700 lawful protestors in advance of days of protests, calculated as a preemptive political sweep to take activists off the streets; the illegal raid, seizure and closure of the convergence center; confiscation of political literature; brutal beatings of peaceful
activists.

This was big news here in the DC area when it happened. The DC police "promised not to do it again . . ."

 

[Jim March]

Eventually really small vidcams with wireless transmission over WiFi/WiMAX/EVDO or similar will end most cases of police assault/abuse. They will also radically change society in general.

Five to ten years tops. Maybe less.

 

[patrol120]

I am sure rodney king would agree with your assumption.

LOL...the only thing that the officers in the Rodney King case did wrong was not use the batons correctly. A PR24 should have laid him out in 3 strikes, maximum.

 

[Joejojoba111]

LOL...the only thing that the officers in the Rodney King case did wrong was not use the batons correctly. A PR24 should have laid him out in 3 strikes, maximum.

Ahh, but some people have different definitions of wrong. Perhaps you should say 'their only violation of protocal'.

 

[Zrex]

Here is a little chunk of Texas law:

(c) The use of force to resist an arrest or search is justified:

(1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search; and

(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer's (or other person's) use or attempted use of greater force than necessary.

Here is another little chunk:

Defense of Third Person

A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect a third person if:

(1) under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31 or 9.32 in using force or deadly force to protect himself against the unlawful force or unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes to be threatening the third person he seeks to protect; and

(2) the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/newlaw.htm