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Dean Slammed Over Confederate Flag Comment (gun related)

Discussion in 'Legal' started by BenW, Nov 2, 2003.

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  1. BenW

    BenW Member

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  2. sm

    sm member

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    Native son of the South, in AR no less.
    klinton , showed them D a few more tricks, tell 'em what they[ insert any group here] want to hear to get votes...then forget them. I could always tell when he was lying-his mouth was open and utterance made. Oh heck yeah Klinton a "hunter too" remember...had a "duck rifle" he said , when asked at what range he was felling ducks "80 or so yards". Never will forget that being shown on the local news.

    Yeah buddy, true friend of the hunter and "gun owner". that Klinton fella...he taught his party well.

    But we do have our share of millionare here that do drive p/u trucks and have strong political ties, not referring to the Walton bunch either...and these ties ain't with the D boys either...Rockefeller for one...
     
  3. Bill Hook

    Bill Hook member

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    Why must the Confederate Flag be anything more than a symbol of regional pride? I like how "Southerners" like Clark and Edwards find it "offensive."

    All the liberal @--holes at work on Monday will have put Kerry stickers over the Dean ones that were there on Friday, as they'd hate to be consider one of those "awful rednecks" who own guns (to prove their manhood), drink red wine with fish, or worse, beer and only listen to 2 kinds of music - Country AND Western. :rolleyes:

    Dems will get 95+% of the black vote (as usual), while ticking off the South even more.
     
  4. greyhound

    greyhound Member

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    Agree or disagree with the Confederate flag as a symbol, that was extraordinarily stupid for Dean to even use the words "Confederate flag".

    Once again, agree or disagree, does he have any idea about the battles down there over the CF being on state flags? Not sure if its still on or possible, but wasn't at one point the NAACP calling for a boycott of the entire state of South Carolina?

    There has got to be a better way of referring to Southern people than by using the Confederate flag.

    What a gaffe. It'll be interesting to see how this is going to fly, and if he'll get a break for being a leftist (imagine if Bush did this?)
     
  5. Mark Tyson

    Mark Tyson Member

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    What is the big deal? Dean wants to appeal to rural working class Southerners, that's all he was saying, and these other candidates go berzerk over it.
     
  6. greyhound

    greyhound Member

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    In the US today, ANYTHING that can even remotely be connected to race (not just racism, but race) is a big deal (look at the whole ESPN/Rush Limbaugh nonsense).

    But, just like Cruz Bustamonte using the "N" word, we'll see if he gets a pass because of the "D" after his name....
     
  7. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    The "problem" with using the Army of Northern Virginia's battle flag (St. Andrew's Cross) is that it was adopted by many racists during the Civil Rights movement and hence the disdain and hostility towards it today. There is a double standard in that a lot of racists also flew the American flag too. Anybody else see photos of the KKK marching with the American flag held aloft?

    If someone were to run around with the Hardee flag (blue field with white snowball in center), only a Civil War buff would recognize it. An even earlier flag is the Bonnie Blue (used as early as the Seminole War).

    Now, to represent the people of the south, the ANV battle flag really isn't appropriate when one considers how many southerners actually opposed the war and resented being drafted to fight. The large number of deserters or draft dodgers in the Southern armies (over 100,000 by 1864) speaks for itself. More Kentuckians fought for the Union than for the Confederacy. The same may be true for TN.

    BTW, here's a snippet from Recollections of a Private by Warren Lee Goss. It takes place late in the war during the Battle of the Wilderness (May, 1864). "One of my friends had captured a rebel and was marching him into our lines. As he came out into a little cart-path he and his prisoner encountered a rebel officer. 'Where are you going?' said the officer, with his revolver turned upon the Yankee soldier. 'To the Yankee lines!' replied the prisoner. 'Give that man your musket!' imperiously ordered the officer to the Yankee soldier. "he had me, and I obeyed!' said my informant. No sooner had the officer disappeared than the rebel soldier, to the astonishment of my friend, cooly handed him back his musket, saying, 'Here, take your shooting-iron, and march me to the Yankee army. I'm done with this doggoned Confederacy, I am!' On the way into our lines my informant inquired why he had gone back on the Confederacy. "Well, stranger, the rich men made this war, and we poor men have to do the fighting, and there's too mcuh fight, I reckon, for my health. I've been fighting ever since this blamed war began, and I can see no end to it!'"

    A symbol of the south? George Washington was a Virginian. So was Thomas Jefferson. Daniel Boone (Kentuckian & then Missourian)? Davy Crockett? If I want modern, I'd want Alvin York.
     
  8. BenW

    BenW Member

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    The big deal(s) for me in that article were:

    1) That whatever your position on the Confederate flag is, it seems kind of offensive that "tolerant, non-prejudiced liberals" automatically equate the Confederate flag with the NRA. I would hazard to guess that in the membership of the NRA, there are people who both love and hate the Confederate flag, just like in the general population.

    2) The day after he goes "hunting" to prove what a friend of gunowners he is, Kerry makes deragatory statements alluding to the cultural makeup of NRA membership. And Democrats are saying we should trust them on their attempt to reach out to gun owners? Right.
     
  9. w4rma

    w4rma member

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    Statement From Governor Dean Regarding Kerry, Gephardt Tag Team Attacks

    BURLINGTON--Last winter--to resounding applause and a standing ovation--Democratic presidential candidate Governor Howard Dean, M.D., told the DNC that "white folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."

    In response to Congressman Gephardt's and Senator Kerry's most recent attacks, Governor Dean said:

    "I want people with confederate flags on their trucks to put down those flags and vote Democratic--because the need for quality healthcare, jobs, and a good education knows no racial boundaries. We have working white families in the south voting for tax cuts for the richest 1% while their children remain with no health care. The dividing of working people by race has been a cornerstone of Republican politics for the last three decades--starting with Richard Nixon. For my fellow Democratic opponents to sink to this level is really tragic. The only way we're going to beat George Bush is if southern white working families and African American working families come together under the Democratic tent, as they did under FDR.

    "In his historic 'I have a dream speech,' Martin Luther King, Jr., said: 'I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood.' I believe Dr. King's vision still represents the future of America. And that is what our campaign is about."

    UPDATE: Here is the full quote from the DNC speech referred to above:

    "I want all of our institutions of higher learning, our law schools, our medical schools, our best universities to look like the rest of America. And I thought that one of the most despicable moments of this president's administration was three weeks ago, when on national prime-time television, he used the word "quota'' seven times. The University of Michigan does not now have quotas. It has never had quotas. Quotas is a race-loaded word, designed to appeal to people's fears of losing their jobs.

    "I intend to talk about race in this election in the south because the Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us. And I'm going to bring us together, because you know what? White folks in the south who drive pickups trucks with confederate flags decals in the back ought to be voting with us and not them, because their kids don't have health insurance either and their kids need better schools too.

    "We're not done yet.

    "Most of you know that six months before my last re-election I signed a bill into law that made Vermont the first state in American to guarantee equal rights to every person under the law - EVERY person under the law. That bill was called the Civil Unions bill. And it said that marriage is between a man and a woman, but same-sex couples are entitled to the exact same legal rights as I have - hospital visitation, insurance, and inheritance rights. All Americans are equal under the law in our state.

    "This bill was at about 40% in the polls when I signed it ? 60% were against it, six months before the election. I never got a chance to ask myself whether signing it was a good idea or not because I knew that if I were willing to sell out the rights of a whole group of human beings because it might be politically inconvenient for a future office I might run for, then I had wasted my time in public service."

    You can also watch the full speech in the C-SPAN archive -- when it loads, fast-forward to 1:57:05 (this particular section begins at 2:06:56).

    Posted by Mathew Gross at 04:57 PM
    http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002081.html
     
  10. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    Gary, yes, but the South's treason was in order to preserve slavery. Even that epitome of Ol' Virginny, Bobby Lee, admitted to this. How can the Confederate flag be more of a racist symbol than that???:confused:

    McGovern must really be comfortable with his lead to make such a fox paw.:eek: I must confess to enjoy this--seeing the socialists tear into each other. I'd like to see some "protestors" at the next Dean speech.:D

    Maybe burn the Traitors' Cross or chant "Dean, Dean, KKK, all of you can go away!":D
     
  11. fallingblock

    fallingblock Member

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    El Tejon....

    A Hoosier's sense of humor!:D



    "....chant "Dean, Dean, KKK, all of you can go away!"
     
  12. semf

    semf member

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    And this fromthe constitution of the Confederacy

    While the Confederate constitution did not abolish slavery neither did the U.S. it did forbid further importation
    So will someone explain to me again how this was a war about slavery.
    If it was soley about slavery, Why did it tak Lincoln two years to free them. And why did freeing them cause mass desertions in the north.
    My only comment about displying the flag is How many of us display second place awards or trophies from a two party contest
     
  13. w4rma

    w4rma member

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    Related past statements by Gov. Dean:

    Link 1
    "All right, the Confederate Flag may be an issue for you, but what about your childrens' health care? There's sixty thousand kids in South Carolina that don't have health insurance - and most of them are white. If you keep voting for the Republicans, they're never going to get health insurance for your kids, they're never going to help your schools, you're never going to get a better job, you're never going to get a raise. Come back to the Democratic Party - the party of Franklin Roosevelt where everybody was included!"

    Link 2
    "There's no reason why white guys who have a Confederate flag in the back of their pickup truck shouldn't be walking side-by-side with blacks, because they don't have health insurance, either," Dean said.

    Link 3
    "South Carolinians have voted Republican for 30 years," said Dean, who appeared on stage with no jacket and blue short-sleeve shirt. "Tell me what you have to show for it?"

    "Nothing! Nothing!" several in the crowd shouted back.

    "The Legislature cut $73 million out of the public school system. Jobs gone to other countries especially in textiles. People haven't had raises in five years because their health insurance premiums took their raise in pay," Dean said.

    "If you're satisfied with that, you ought to vote for George Bush," he said. "But maybe you ought to vote Democratic again. Because when white people and black people and brown people vote together in this country, that's when we make social progress."

    Link 4
    During a frenetic day of events, Dean continued to portray himself as the insurgent candidate among a crowded field of political insiders, the one unafraid to take on controversial issues.

    And in South Carolina, where the Confederate flag waves on the grounds of the State House, one of those issues was race.

    “When we come to the South, Democrats have got to start talking about race because the Republicans always talk about race,†he said to the South Carolina Democratic Convention. “They talk about it to try to keep people from voting, they talk about it by using divisive words like quotas, which are race-based words. In the South, we have discovered that when white voters and black voters vote together, we all make progress.â€
     
  14. fallingblock

    fallingblock Member

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    After that tirade of twaddle.....

    "In the South, we have discovered that when white voters and black voters vote together, we all make progress.â€
    ************************************************************

    They'll no doubt be voting all right....Republican:D
     
  15. Mark Tyson

    Mark Tyson Member

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    This pathetic effort to portray Dean as racist just for saying that the party needs to expand its voter base reveals desperation and viciousness on the part of the other candidates. Of course Dean has said some pretty nasty things himself. It's just politics - it's the nature of the beast. If Dean really wants to reach out to rural southerners he should drop any pretense of being for gun control and come out in support of RKBA - against the ban, against "closing the gun show loophole", etc. The other candidates and the Mommies already portray him as against gun control anyway. He doesn't owe them a damn thing, so let him flush 'em down.
     
  16. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    semf, the South made the war about slavery, not the North. The evidence that it was slavery comes from the South.
     
  17. Waitone

    Waitone Member

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    I was surfing through cable last night and caught Russert's show (I rarely watch it) where he was interviewing Zel Miller from GA. Russert was batting questions about Miller's book. When he asked about Dean's confederate flag comment I thought Miller would come unglued. I said that kind of comment raised the spectre of Dukakis' southern campaign strategy of piling bales of hay around. It remined him of something out of Hee Haw. Miller said the comment betrayed a fundamental misunderstanding of what the south is. Every candidate who misunderstands the south has lost the presidency.

    BTW, I can now see why Miller is such a loss to the senate. He is one strong individual.
     
  18. MuzzleBlast

    MuzzleBlast Member

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    What is more racist, slavery or genocide? I'm fairly certain it was the Stars and Stripes flying at the head of the 7th Cavalry. People condemning the confederacy and its symbols as racist are HYPOCRITES.
    We can keep slinging mud, or we can live and let live. Your call.
     
  19. Waitone

    Waitone Member

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    Muzzleblast hit on something that is not wekk appreciated.

    The confederate flag (for now just one variation) is under attack. When the stars and bars is effectively banned other variations will assume importance and it will then be attacked. See, racial hatred has to have a public object to villify.

    At some point an enterprising community racist will figure out racial hatred was carried out under the US flag. So then whaddya do? If the stars and bars was banned because it was a symbol of racial hatred, then you gotta do the same thing with the US flag because the same kind of stuff happened while it fluttered above.
     
  20. semf

    semf member

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    How so? Lincoln made it about slavery when he issued the EP to win Euro support or to at least prevent their interference.
    In the grand scheme of things it really dosen't matter the south lost the war. Even though slavery was on the way out at the time of the war, if the south had won at best we would be at the same point we were at in the 60s. And I would be branded a race traitor which is lower than any of the dark races. So I'm prety happy with the way things are.
    One thing that has not been mentioned is that the Reb flag never flew over the reconstructed south until the 50s brought the civil rights movement.
    El Tejon I respect your opinion I just don't agree with it. We will never agree and to me it's not worth arguing over. The war's over we lost I got over it years ago.
    I also think the flag is worn out and needs to be put to rest.

    On a liter note does anybody know what Arlington cemetary was originally and who's property it was.
     
  21. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    semf, Bobby Lee's, right?

    semf, my point was that the South made it the issue. That was their reason for leaving the Union as evidenced by their own declarations, actions, Congressional debate, and statements by the administration of the CSA.

    You're right though Lincoln said several times that he simply wanted to save the Union, slavery or not. You're also right in that it may be a distinction without difference in that slavery was ended with the ending of the CSA. However, I think it is important to counter the Southern revisionist attempts that I believe are dangerous.
     
  22. semf

    semf member

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    Yes and I feel the same way about the Union revisionists. But I've read more than the govt text books printed in NYNY and Pa. The winner always writes the history.
    The Southern History of The War published in 1866 and written during the war in some parts tells a differant story. It mentions specifically states rights as the overwhelming issue of the war although slavery was a major issue, as it pertained to southern economy. If slavery was an issue in the war it certainly was not the reason that the soldiers fought it.
    There were as many people in the north that thought blacks were inferior as there were in the south. Lincoln himself made that assertion.
    The south has no franchise on racism or bad behavior we just have a ready symbol to point at.
     
  23. gburner

    gburner member

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    Some points...

    The War Between the States was not about slavery, at least not in the absolutist sense that some posters present it here. The largely agrarian, slave labor maintained lifestyle and economy of the south was rapdly fading/faltering by the mid 1800's. Advances in the mechanization of agriculture and the criminalization of the slave trade spelled the end of this repugnant system. Further, views on race, with the exception of a small but vocal group of abolitionists, were fairly analogous on both sides of the Mason-Dixon line. Blacks, as a race, were treated no more fairly or humanely in New York City than they were in Charleston, SC. To state that one side or the other fought soley to either uphold or abolish slavery betrays a lack of understanding of the larger issues involved and the context in which these issues were being played out. If one is to look for the fundamental causes of the War, it can be found in three questions.

    First, does the Federal Government have the overarching (and some would say unconstitutional) power to impose upon the various states the Federal 'will' as regards trade, economic policy, social norms, the garrisoning of troops, usurpation of land rights, institution of tarriffs which are both regionally benefical for northern merchants and strangulating for those in the south, etc...?

    Second, if the answer to number one is yes, do the individual states, having joined the union voluntarily, have the right to dissolve that union when the government fails or refuses to ensure those rights enumerated in the Constitution or takes on powers not specifically granted to it under the same document?

    Does the FederalGovenment have the constitutional power to hold the union together by force, thus enforcing voluntary participation in the union by duress? This attempted dissolution was incorrectly referred to as treason by a previous poster.

    The subject of slavery and race is certainly woven in and out of these larger issues but is by no means the whole cloth.

    In the modern context, the use of the ANV battle flag as a symbol of regional solidarity has been strenghtened by years of derisive and insulting attitude by much of the rest of the country about the south. Redneck jokes, stereotypes of inbred banjo playing idiots, slow and lazy folks caught up with family ties,
    the absolute (and to some outsiders, tedious) need for manners, honor
    and loyalty all seem somewhat foreign to many and therefore something to be mocked. Add to this the fact that the South was occupied territory from 1865 to 1875, that it's 'carcass' was picked clean by carpetbaggers and hustlers from the north and those societal changes that it was unwilling or uable to make prior to the War were forced upon it at the point of the Federal bayonet. This humiliation, added to the characature of the south as a haven for racists, buffoons, traitors, charlatans and whack jobs of every stripe only reinforced the need for a symbol as 'in your face' as the Battle Flag. It's not slaves or the repugnant slave supported economy that southerners miss. Quite the contrary. To a person, my experience has been that slavery is seen as a grievous moral failing and outrage which is insupportable; the fallout of which is being rectified even today. No, what southerers long for is a time when the Federal government stayed out of our pockets, out of our businesses, and out of our lives.

    Idiots like Dean are only too eager to attempt to co-opt the image of the Flag without truly understanding (or caring for that matter) what it is all about. Likewise, race baiters like Sharpton will always see something evil and insideous in the Flag because their eyes are blinded by the need to financially and socially perpetuate their victimhood.
    Heritage, not hatred.
     
  24. semf

    semf member

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    See if i could communicate like that gburner, I would win more arguments and probably get to meet prettier women.
     
  25. Ed

    Ed Member

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    Having worked for the National Park Service and Living in the South, I can honestly say that the was not just about slavery. It was about States rights, and tarrifs on goods from overseas. The North was setting up tarrifs to insure goods were sent to their factories for processing. And another fact that is often forgotten is that when Lincoln freed slaves, he freed only the slaves in the revolting states. The whole thing with flags and racist are blown out of proportion. Come live in the south for a while and you will see Confederate flags sure, but you will also see white people and black people getting along everyday. I think most of the people complaining don't live here. Sure there are the stupid racist people. But they live outside the south too. My generation grew up in schools where the mix was 50/50 or in my school, 70/30 more black than white. So We learn from the start to get along. I get mad whenever peopel start to equate the " Confederate flag" with stupid white people. Like Dean has done.
     
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