Death Toll in the Old West from firearms vs the unarmed East

[Gaucho Gringo]

I was watching the History Channel this morning. They had a segment on Wyatt Earp and another on the Cowboys. They stated that even though almost everyone in the Old West was armed with some sort of firearm, the death rate at the time from firearms was less than it was in the supposidely gun controlled East. Even 160 years ago the same scenario applied, an armed society was politer and safer than a supposedly unarmed society. I would think that an unbiased study would show the same thing today, but the anti's have the study statistics skewed thier way because they are the one's mainly doing the studies. The facts from 160 years ago prove the old saying still holds true, "When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns".
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[GRIZ22]

In the Old West many towns required cowboys to check their guns when in town. not that I am supporting taking guns away from people but this is a fact that needs to be considered.

 

[winston smith]

In the Old West many towns required cowboys to check their guns when in town. not that I am supporting taking guns away from people but this is a fact that needs to be considered.

Yes, the transients checked their guns; BUT the Townsfolk kept theirs on under their clothes. Double standard.

 

[cyclopsshooter]

population density between east and west? what about the lack of economic advancement possibilities in the east that spurred people to go west?- did those lack of possibilities bring on more crime?

there are a lot of variables at play here...

 

[ArmedBear]

Was the East gun-controlled?

I don't think it was.

 

[Cosmoline]

supposidely gun controlled East

The eastern, urbanized US was not subject to much gun control legislation until the 20th century. Starting with NYC's Sullivan Act prior to WWI. During the post Civil War period the big gun control measures were taken as part of Reconstruction and Jim Crow in the South, where it was aimed at disarming freedmen.

There were a myriad of firearms for concealed carry in an urbanized area, particularly with the advent of the "bulldog" style.

 

[GRIZ22]

Townsfolk kept theirs on under their clothes

as did many of the transients

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Even 160 years ago the same scenario applied, an armed society was politer

Ah, the pre-nuke MAD scenario. You don't dare be rude out of fear that the other person will pull their gun and hence a gunfight that nobody wants will ensue.

As already touched upon, there was a considerable difference between old west frontier population densities and back east population densities and with the greater density comes a propensity for violence and crime.

 

[DrLaw]

You don't dare be rude out of fear that the other person will pull their gun and hence a gunfight that nobody wants will ensue.

I've heard that, too. I think of Luby's Restaurant and a number of unarmed soldiers and think that some real rudeness could have been nipped in the bud sooner if our politicians would trust us as opposed to thinking of us the way we think of them.

I think the crime rate in the east was also fostered by the tenement living that was already happening in some cities (New Yawk) and the higher population.

The Doc is out now.

 

[ratgunner]

Doc has some good points.

 

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Well, I believe in gun control. I don't anybody to have a gun except me and the U.S. Marine Corps....(!!).... HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYBODY....

 

[Acorn Mush]

The eastern, urbanized US was not subject to much gun control legislation until the 20th century. Starting with NYC's Sullivan Act prior to WWI.

Years ago I was reading a little history of gun control and Sullivan was mentioned specifically. Seems Mr. Sullivan controlled segments of the crime world in Manhattan, as well as being a New York State Senator and part of the corrupt Tammany Hall political machine. He figured if he could get a licensing law passed, he would fix things to allow only his own people to get licenses while at the same time take the guns out of the hands of his "competition", as in private citizens. This would allow his boys to go about their "jobs" without fear of reprisals from their victims. Sweet deal, huh? Of course, there are absolutely NO parallels with what is going on today, right?

The Sullivan Act was passed in 1911. In 1912 Mr. Sullivan, suffering from tertiary syphilis was judged mentally incompetent and subsequently committed to a sanitarium where he died in 1913.

Too bad he didn't contract the disease about 5 years earlier.

 

[4v50 Gary]

There certainly were gunfights, but they weren't everyday, common occurrences like the 1950's TV shows or movies would have us believe. Besides, who the heck wants to watch a boring cattledrive? Personally, I believe the killing is far worse today than it's ever been. I cited Oakland or Richmond, CA.

(Unless of course it's Rawhide where those cowboys got into gunfights every now and then )

 

[X-Rap]

My bet is that the History Channel would have a hard time backing that statement up with documentation. Its hard enough today to come to a concensus on the homicide rate and the demographics let alone in the 1800's.
There were likely a lot of bushwacking and indian shooting that wasn't counted as well as accidental deaths that went un reported.
In short I'd take the HC with a grain of salt.

 

[4v50 Gary]

X-Rap brings up a good point. Law enforcement statistics, if any, wasn't collected by any federal agency. The standards of proof were more lax back then and the perfect trial standard of today didn't apply then. Thus, it was probably easier to assert "self defense" and negate any intentional homicide than today.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I saw that too. They claimed that in Abilene in the cattle drive season they only averaged 1.5 deaths per year due to gunshot wounds. That surprised me.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Here is a nifty link to many of the Old West gunfights...
http://www.legendsofamerica.com/WE-Gunfights.html

They claimed that in Abilene in the cattle drive season they only averaged 1.5 deaths per year due to gunshot wounds.

I take it that this was Abilene, KS, a major railhead for shipping cattle. All things considered, it was a fairly exciting town. With the growth from the cattle drives and railroad bringing prosperity to town, lawlessness ensued and so they had to hire sheriffs. The first was Thomas Smith who enacted gun control (can't carry w/o a permit). He was killed after being shot, shooting the man who shot him, only to have the man's partner, pistolwhip him and chop off his head with an ax in 1870. Then came Wild Bill Hickok. He was a friend of John Hardin and Hardin had to leave town after shooting another man. Hickok also enforced gun control and shot a Phil Coe who had shot a dog that tried to bite him. Hickok apparently was trying to explain the no guns law to Coe when Coe fired upon Hickok. Hickok shot Coe twice and then upon hearing footsteps approaching, turned and fired on his deputy, killing the deputy. Coe died a few days later and Hickok was fired from his job. That all happened in 1871.

Granted, all this occurred at the end of the cattle drive era, but in the first two years of having law enforcement, two officers were killed as a result of gun battles as well as others that were shot and some killed. I am just guessing here, but I would assume that there were many more shootings and additional killings that involved less historically notable people and occurring in a town that was probably less than a couple thousand people. http://www.legendsofamerica.com/ks-abilene.html

 

[BHP FAN]

I think Whooping Cough and Small Pox probably killed more.

 

[Shultzhaus]

Somewhere I heard recently that more cowboys died falling off their horse, than by gun fire.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Falling off horses, whooping cough, small pox, and other maladies such as TB, flu, measles, yellow fever are not intentional forms of violence.

 

[messerist]

Not to mention being poisoned by a jug of "Ol' Red Eye" or some jug of un-rectified "Hoo-hit John"

 

[Loyalist Dave]

They claimed that in Abilene in the cattle drive season they only averaged 1.5 deaths per year due to gunshot wounds.

What about just outside of Abilene? Statistics such as these, even today, are skewed by parameters. I remember years ago when Peter Jennings of ABC was touting how great was Vancouver BC where handguns were heavily restricted, compared to Seattle, WA, for at the time in WA handguns were much easier to obtain, and how high the "handgun homicide rate" was in Seattle..., because to the social "scientists" the two cities were demographically and economically very similar..., and they were right about the similarities for when the total number of homicides were compared, the rates were very close, the Canadians had to resort to tools other than handguns, but the people still died.

Until WWI..., most soldiers in wars died of diseases..., with WWI being so horrible as the combat casualties we much higher both in numbers and percentages, but if you figure in the civilian deaths due famine and to the spread of the Spanish flu..., you're back to disease being the number one overall cause of death.

When Marion Barry was Mayor of DC he used to make wisecracks about how DC was almost as bad as Dodge City..., until the Mayor of Dodge City got tired of it, and demonstrated that DC with all of its handgun restrictions had a much higher homicide rate that Dodge City ever had..., and threatened to sue Barry if he didn't stop.

LD

 

[fineredmist]

Gun control in the East was by economic condition and not so much by law. Firearms were very expensive for the "average" citizen so weapons of choice were knives, clubs, knuckles and anything else they could use. The movie "The Gangs of New York" (based on the book of the same name) is a fairly accurate portrail of the times. Policemen were hired based on their ability to use their fists and clubs. The bigger the man and the meaner he was the better the "copper" he made.
The slums of the big cities were far more dangerous than the "wild west". High unemployment led to a life of crime just to survive, disease also took it's toll. The conditions in the inner cities today are wonderful when compared to conditions in the Civil War era. Cramped conditions, unemployment, drugs and aholchol made for a very "unpolite" society and the bodies lay in the streets or floated away on the tide.
The politicians were even more corrupt that today and they had the money to arm their goons with firearms to keep the opposition in check. New York City's famous "Sullivan Law" was put in place to enable the established corrupt politicians to issue permits to their goons and to arrest the opposition's goons who did not have permits.

 

[X-Rap]

In the Hickok /John Hardin story I think Hardin killed 2 or 3 while on his way to Kansas so what town gets to credit those?
Any history is going to be skewed by those who tell it.

 

[BHP FAN]

Double Naught said:
''Falling off horses, whooping cough, small pox, and other maladies such as TB, flu, measles, yellow fever are not intentional forms of violence...''

Also it's tough to find a holster to fit yellow fever, etc.