While religion played a role in this debate, I do not believe that religion, per se, was the root of the argument. Rather, it appears as though most of the argument flowed from the view of Jesus being non-violent, and accepting of all. Granted, it got a little weird in the middle when God and Government were brought in.
The good Reverend DID backtrack hard when I indicated this debate went a lot more public. He was progressively more and more anti in his language - RIGHT up to the point he realized that his views were hitting the Internet, proper. Then he recanted and reverted to his more original "moderate" tone.
It could also have been that I called out using religion as a shield. People WILL do that - regardless of which religion we're talking about. When you have a concept, such as a religious belief, serve as a cornerstone of your moral code, it becomes a "safe harbor". There's nothing inherently wrong in this; in fact, it's a VERY good thing to have strong morality, and a well structured moral code. (If only MORE people had this...)
Morality in religions takes on different flavors and tones - it is what makes religions different, and different subsets of the same religion different. Morality is also a "gray upon gray" area where something that is morally GOOD for one, might be morally BAD for another. Without going in to specifics, suffice to say that these ambiguous borders of morality are the "hot zones", and have been a primary cause of war, conflict, and suffering over the ages.
While one may use a certain morality belief to justify non-violence, another may use the exact same portion of moral code to actually justify violence. The difference lies in the individual and the teachings, the environment and the circumstances. This topic FAR surpasses the scope and needs of this thread.
However, an understanding of morality (not in BEING moral, but the topic itself) will absolutely assist you in an emotional debate with a religious undertone or religious basis.
Because gun ownership and the right to keep and bear arms crosses over and supersedes all religions, all races, all creeds, all politics; it is important to draw the line in the sand in the proper place. I say the right "supersedes" these factors, because the right to keep and bear arms - and by nature, the right to preserve and sustain life, and the way of life - is a fundamental human right.
A liberal hippy long haired Buddhist has the SAME rights as a mid-western housewife, has the SAME rights as a conservative southern Christian, has the SAME rights as a homeless man in Seattle, has the SAME rights as an Islamic/Arabic naturalized immigrant.
Human rights have no BOUNDARIES and know no SEGREGATION. Human rights are superior to politics, they are BEYOND politics. Human rights are the fundamental freedom of the human to live. Firearms ownership MUST be viewed as a fundamental human right, not a privilege, not a "want", not a "desire", and it must NEVER be treated as if it's a chip in a high stakes poker game.
There is a reason firearms ownership was included in the bill of rights, and ranked up there with freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and various other fundamentals. Mankind has known since the first man killed another man, that a sharp pointy stick or rock is better than an empty hand. That a rifle is better than a bow. That a firearm is a universal tool which protects us, provides for us, and secures us.
Like I said, this fight is against a constantly moving target.
When your opponent brings up good or evil, God or Faith, or any other argument - Statistics, logic, and reason no longer apply as they would against someone who only cares about body counts and numbers.
Arguing with a priest is sure as heck tougher than arguing with a mathematician, but the underlying fundamentals don't change. In fact, you gain MORE tools at your disposal because you have the entire scope of human rights, right to survive, and emotional basis at your disposal.
Bottom line - those of you with concealed carry permits, or badges, or hunters who carry a firearm daily for a purpose, don't typically carry a firearm because of a number on a spreadsheet or emotion (might be exceptions).
You carry a firearm to survive, because it's your right to survive, to live and breathe, prosper or fail, provide for others, and even breed... another day.
The good Reverend DID backtrack hard when I indicated this debate went a lot more public. He was progressively more and more anti in his language - RIGHT up to the point he realized that his views were hitting the Internet, proper. Then he recanted and reverted to his more original "moderate" tone.
It could also have been that I called out using religion as a shield. People WILL do that - regardless of which religion we're talking about. When you have a concept, such as a religious belief, serve as a cornerstone of your moral code, it becomes a "safe harbor". There's nothing inherently wrong in this; in fact, it's a VERY good thing to have strong morality, and a well structured moral code. (If only MORE people had this...)
Morality in religions takes on different flavors and tones - it is what makes religions different, and different subsets of the same religion different. Morality is also a "gray upon gray" area where something that is morally GOOD for one, might be morally BAD for another. Without going in to specifics, suffice to say that these ambiguous borders of morality are the "hot zones", and have been a primary cause of war, conflict, and suffering over the ages.
While one may use a certain morality belief to justify non-violence, another may use the exact same portion of moral code to actually justify violence. The difference lies in the individual and the teachings, the environment and the circumstances. This topic FAR surpasses the scope and needs of this thread.
However, an understanding of morality (not in BEING moral, but the topic itself) will absolutely assist you in an emotional debate with a religious undertone or religious basis.
Because gun ownership and the right to keep and bear arms crosses over and supersedes all religions, all races, all creeds, all politics; it is important to draw the line in the sand in the proper place. I say the right "supersedes" these factors, because the right to keep and bear arms - and by nature, the right to preserve and sustain life, and the way of life - is a fundamental human right.
A liberal hippy long haired Buddhist has the SAME rights as a mid-western housewife, has the SAME rights as a conservative southern Christian, has the SAME rights as a homeless man in Seattle, has the SAME rights as an Islamic/Arabic naturalized immigrant.
Human rights have no BOUNDARIES and know no SEGREGATION. Human rights are superior to politics, they are BEYOND politics. Human rights are the fundamental freedom of the human to live. Firearms ownership MUST be viewed as a fundamental human right, not a privilege, not a "want", not a "desire", and it must NEVER be treated as if it's a chip in a high stakes poker game.
There is a reason firearms ownership was included in the bill of rights, and ranked up there with freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and various other fundamentals. Mankind has known since the first man killed another man, that a sharp pointy stick or rock is better than an empty hand. That a rifle is better than a bow. That a firearm is a universal tool which protects us, provides for us, and secures us.
Like I said, this fight is against a constantly moving target.
When your opponent brings up good or evil, God or Faith, or any other argument - Statistics, logic, and reason no longer apply as they would against someone who only cares about body counts and numbers.
Arguing with a priest is sure as heck tougher than arguing with a mathematician, but the underlying fundamentals don't change. In fact, you gain MORE tools at your disposal because you have the entire scope of human rights, right to survive, and emotional basis at your disposal.
Bottom line - those of you with concealed carry permits, or badges, or hunters who carry a firearm daily for a purpose, don't typically carry a firearm because of a number on a spreadsheet or emotion (might be exceptions).
You carry a firearm to survive, because it's your right to survive, to live and breathe, prosper or fail, provide for others, and even breed... another day.
