Debunking the TKO myth

[CraigC]

Then they are using it wrong.

It depends on the bullet. Problem is that most .45ACP bullets are inappropriate for big game use. However, if you can use a good cast semi-wadcutter, it should do fine. On par with the venerable 250gr .45Colt 900fps load that will penetrate end to end on nearly any deer that walks. It just doesn't work for the reasons stated.

Skip the .30M1, .223 and 9mm though.

 

[Bird Dog II]

One of my 45-70 loads...ain't no 30-06 around that can do it any better.

Let's step out to range varying from 200 to 450 and see about that.

 

[CraigC]

Let's step out to range varying from 200 to 450 and see about that.

No, the .45-70 is not a long range hunting round for any but the expert. However, within its effective range of 200-250yds, it is a much bigger hammer that with the proper bullet, will break large bones and penetrate like a freight train on the largest of game animals. Yes, the .30-06 is "good" at many things but not everything.

 

[Kachok]

Penatrating a deer and creating sufficient soft tissue damage are two very different things. Regular 230gr FMJs will penatrate 27" of soft tissue, but the wound tract is pencil thin, total volume of the wound catity is a mere 4.29cu in, most of it's energy was expended creating a small and relitivly meaningless temporary wound cavity. 45 HPs made a real wound tract but failed the penatration test badly (aprox 10-12") since they are designed for personal defence and not hunting.
Yes anything bullet or otherwise passing through the vital organs of a deer will kill it, but I rank the 45ACP a very poor choice for quick kills, a 44mag with flat points makes a much wider wound tract because of it's higher speed, and a 240gr JHP make a crater with a volume MANY times greater then any 45ACP. This is not ballistic hearsay this is backed up by real world tests. I persoanly would not rank any .45ACP round I have ever seen tested any higher then the .223 with 60gr Partitions, so I place both of them on the unethical list. There simply is no reson to hunt with something that puney when there are so many much better choices out there.

 

[Kachok]

To clear things up a full power 45-70 load will excede the tissue damage of just about any 30-06 load at close range. A 300gr Partition at 2200fps will hit like a freight train. The OGW formula backs this as well with a 1437lbs OGW at the muzzle.

 

[CraigC]

Which is exactly why I was very specific about the bullet used. I stand behind my statements and those about the similar .45Colt loading. We have learned from testing that there is little to be gained from pushing non-expanding SWC and LBT-style cast bullets beyond 1200fps in handguns. I can tell you right now that a 240-250gr .44 or .45 at 1050fps kills all out of proportion to its paper ballistics. So why would we expect one running a mere 150-300fps slower to be so much less lethal? Is it ideal? Certainly not. Will it work with the proper bullet and fail with the wrong bullet? Absolutely!

I would direct you to John Linebaugh's statements about the lowly .45Colt at blackpowder pressures.

http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm

The OGW formula backs this as well with a 1437lbs OGW at the muzzle.

I'd hate to know I had to hunt a 1400lb critter with that bullet.

 

[336A]

I don't place much stock on the various formulas that are out there. They are interesting to to use to compare various cartridges though no doubt but that is it. Not to long ago there was a poster over at Marlinowners who posted a pic of a grizzly bear that he shot with a 30-30 170gr federal Power Shok. One round at 80 yards and the bullet went clear through the heart and lungs then embedded itself into a river bank never to be recovered. The bear traveled about 30 yards IIRC and piled up sone dead This was not the first one he shot with the 30-30 either folks. Would I shoot a grizzly with my 30-30...? No freakin' way but yet folks are still getting it done with the ol' 30WCF

According to the various formulas and what not out there, one would be led to believe that a 170gr bullet from a 30-30 would bounce off of animals larger than deer. This is of course but one example and others have cited other similar examples in this thread. The bottom line is know the anatomy of the animal your hunting and use proper shot placement. Then read my signature line Thats all I have to comment on about these TKO/OGW formulas

 

[Kachok]

Flat point solids do make a wider temparary and permanite wound cavity at higher speeds, I have read the tests and seen the experements I cannot speak for all SWCs but those with a large meplet make much more damage. It might take me a while to track down my sources to quote you but I will find it again.

 

[Art Eatman]

The large meplat goes back to Elmer Keith's era. Ross Seyfried extolled its virtues many times in his articles in Guns&Ammo about hunting large animals with his large handguns. Water buffalo with a .454 Casull on one hunt in Australia, IIRC.

 

[Kachok]

Well that did not take long, I found a refrence just to that effect in "the mechanics of terminal ballistics" with the exact same .44cal 300gr Hard cast flat nose bullet wounds canals at 800fps (45ACP speeds) were only .50 inch in diamiter. With an impact speed of 1400fps the wound canals were 1.37" that is a HUGE difference! The test bullet did have a healthy meplet of .34 caliber. None of the test bullets expanded or deformed any noticable amount. Penetration was a very healthy 35" at full power.

 

[336A]

Here is some more reference material for you as well Kachok.
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/index.htm

 

[Laserslug]

Um heat is energy too last I checked. So insted of 3,200 ft lbs now we kill with 2,890,000 BTU. Forget blood trails just follw the smell of burnt hair LOL
I think it would be an intresting cross comparison to relate high power small calibers to a streight case big bore in terms of efectivness. For example I would say that within a 100 yards there is nothing I would use my 6.5x55 on that I could not use a 44 magnum carbine on with just as much confidence and vice versa. They are both plenty of overkill for deer, they are both a step up in power (not KE) from the 30-30, they would both make a great close range elk gun with careful bullet selection. 44 mag TKO 26 vs 6.5x55 TKO 14, and for you pure energy guys 1583 ftlbs vs 2350 ftlbs OGW says 443lbs vs 611lbs. Momentum is nearly identical. I don't think any hunter or deer would ever know the difference inside of the 44s effective range, what do yall think?

Energy is measured in foot pounds.
Momentum is measured in pound seconds.
If you need details of how mass times velocity gives pound seconds, just ask.

 

[Kachok]

I know how momentum works, trust me my math is correct.

 

[Kachok]

I don't think anyone else would argue the point that speed makes all the difference in the terminal performance of even FN solids when we are talking about soft tissue damage.

 

[CraigC]

Not at handgun speeds. Pushing them faster than 1200-1300fps does little more than flatten trajectory and punish the shooter. Severe case of diminishing returns.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Even when headshots on elephant is the consideration remember the most sucessful elephant hunter in human history Walter Bell hunted them with 6.5mms and 7mm Mausers. He said that larger calibers made no difference, if you hit the brain they would go down very quickly, if you did not you have to shoot again anyway. He tried the 450NE but went back to his 7mm John Taylor was an experenced big game hunter no doubt, but his level of experence with elephants was nothing compared to Bell.

You seem to indicate that Bell felt the 6.5 and 7mm rifles were preferred for dropping elephants because they did the job just as well as bigger calibers. They did only if he did things just right. Note that on average with the 7mm, it took him 2 shots half the time to bring down the animal as his shooting average was 1.5 shots per kill.

His 7mm rounds cost him about 1/10th the cost of the .450 cartridges. Do you think that had anything to do with his choice?

Bell wasn't an average hunter, but very skilled, very practiced. He picked his shots carefully and didn't play the stupid games of letting the animal charge the hunter before shooting. It was a business to him.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/bell_elephants.htm

 

[Kachok]

No sir I have shown that even at magnum handgun speeds that the wound tract from a flat point solid is dramaticly increased, this is not some small amount I am talking about here it is a huge difference. Craig I recomend you read up on what you are talking about becore trying to correct me.
Yes I know Bell was a heck of a shot, and I have read his whole bio before. The guy shot birds out of mid flight with a rifle, that is really good, I would not recomend just anyone to try hunting elephant with a 7mm Mauser

 

[mr.trooper]

You still don't seem to grasp the futility of this little endeavor.

It doesn't matter which one is more or less wrong. The FACT is that terminal ballistics is not a hard science. Thus, NO formula will EVER be adequate beyond static niche' applications (not the real world).

Its not like you see on TV: when I had forensics classes are part of my education, the one thing the instructors and the textbooks alike stressed with regards to gun shot wounds, is that there is simply NO predicting beyond reasonable doubt what effect a bullet will have on the target. There are simply TOO MANY VARIABLES to predict.

We studied cases where people were killed instantly with a 25acp, as well as cases where people took COM shots from a 30-06 and lived - Not only are the circumstances surrounding the actual shot unpredictable, but so is the bodies reaction to being shot.

The only thing you can KNOW before the shot is that destroying vital structures will kill the target... EVENTUALLY. Anything beyond that is an educated guess at best or, in the case of ALL lethality formulas, bovine excrement.

 

[CraigC]

Craig I recomend you read up on what you are talking about becore trying to correct me.

It's all I do there sport.

I'd recommend a spell checker.

 

[Pigspitter]

Random question, why are we referring to this as a "TKO". That stands for technical knockout which in boxing means that the round was stopped regardless of an actual knockout occurring. We really should just call it a KO since the animal is going to be actually physically knocked out.

 

[Art Eatman]

Pigspitter, that's the problem with not reading all the thread's posts before sounding off--since you missed the little tidbit about T = Taylor.

But enough wandering around and far from the Taylor concept...