Deer Hunting...Mzl. Loader Penetration Issues

[Cocked & Locked]

I've deer hunted since...well, many years. For the last several years, the blackpowder rifle I hunt with is a .50 cal. Traditions In-Line. To date, I've taken 19 deer with this one rifle.

I've tried the various jacketed bullets in sabots, etc., but only recently found a bullet that makes my rifle a very accurate 120 yard gun. I'm shooting Hornady Cast Lead HP Great Plains bullets over 110 grains of Pyrodex (loose, not pellets).

I shot a very large six pointer and a mature doe with this combo Saturday morning. The bullets made large entry holes and did massive internal damage.

Problem is, I'm one of those guys that also like an exit hole ...especially if the deer doesn't drop immediately (better blood trail).

Both of these deer went into the thickets about 50 yards and left a very minimal drop of blood once in awhile. I made the shots in the morning, and recovered both deer. At night, it would have been difficult to find them.

I'm not sure if I'm asking for bullet advice or if I'm just bipping about having an accurate combo that feels like it has plenty of punch, but won't completley penetrate.

The buck was +- 50 yards, the doe at +- 80 yards.

 

[alsaqr]

It sounds like you really have your act together on deer.

110 grains of Pyrodex may be a little much for that soft bullet: This may be causing it to fragment.

Have killed about ten deer and many dozens of hogs with muzzleloaders and the Hornady 240 grain XTP saboted bullet: There was usually an exit when shooting deer behind the shoulder. There were very few exits when using the 240 grain XTP bullet on hogs over 150 pounds. BTW: Hogs are much harder to kill than deer. There was always massive damage to internal organs and/or the nervous system.

Started using the 250 grain SST bullet last year. This bullet is also very deadly on deer and hogs: There is usually an exit when shooting hogs behind the shoulder. i have killed four deer and about 10 hogs with the SST bullet and all were bang flops.

Hornady does make a tougher 240 grain XTP bullet called the XTP/Mag: Friends who have used these bullets say they always exit. There is also a bonded core version of the 250 grain SST bullet. i have no personal experience with either.

 

[sundance44s]

If ya want larger holes try a 54 cal front stuffer ...they hit like a freight train .

 

[Harve Curry]

At the distances your shooting you could reduce your powder charge almost by 1/2 and still kill them. Shooting a heavy and slow moving 54 or 58 cal round ball or Minnie, likely would lay them right out on the spot. It might add some new fun to it for you.

 

[Cocked & Locked]

If ya want larger holes try a 54 cal front stuffer ...they hit like a freight train .

Yep, you're right...I've got one of those too and hunted with it for years. Perhaps I should drag that one out again. Two holes is what I'm looking for.

110 grains of Pyrodex may be a little much for that soft bullet: This may be causing it to fragment.

That's probably true. 110 grains gives me the best accuracy with the 385 bullet. However, maybe I need to back the load down. Blackpowder season ends here Friday, then I'll pick up a centerfire.

The lighter copper jacketed sabot clad bullets group for me like a shotgun. Power belt ones don't work for me what so ever.

 

[Wildfire]

Bullets .

Hey There. I have hunted deer with .50s for many years now and have recently done a lot of bullet testing. I mean a lot. I fired 100s of rounds for accuracy testing. As far as terminal balistics is concerned, finding a good expander is getting harder to do. The reason for this is the new trend toward the magnum MZ. Most all bullets will do well at mag specs. But I do not want to fire my gun at mag specs. And I love heavy lead bullets. But can not get one that will shoot right in my gun. (Encore) So. Here is what I have found.
My Encore will rag a hole at 100 yards with the Hornsdy SST/ML. But Expansion sucks at 1550 to 1600 FPS. The New shock waves are the same bullets and also made by Hornady just packaged for T/C. They also shoot The same groups with the black sabots. The Yellow sabots slide down the barrel easy but wont group and I find the saobots scattered all over the place. The Black sabots are all at 11 paces and in a 4' circle in front of the gun. The Blue tip shock wave is a bonded bullet and supposed to hold it's weight and still expand. While testing we found that bullet expanded from
.451" to .970" and still weighed in at 269 grains. That bullet was fired into water. Other materials may give different results. Accuracy is my #1 goal. With accuracy you have the power. All the velocity in the world wont be of any value if you can not hit your mark. This is my load. The Encore has a 1 in 28" twist. 80 grains Of Pyrodex "P" ( about the same as 100 grs. Of "RS")
With the Reminton ML only primers. These primers will not work in some guns like the Traditions or Remingtons because of their 209 designs.
With the Shock wave 300 gr. with the Black sabots.

I also tested the Barnes 250 and 300 gr. Red Hots. Packaged by Knight.
The 250 gr. shoots very tight groups in my gun and the 300gr. shoots very tight in my sons Encore with the same 80 grs.

One thing to note here is that "P" is hotter than "RS" so you will not get away with 150 grain loads. You may not find all of the parts to your gun.
"P" has a more consitant preasure curve then the RS. I have tried the new never clean your gun powders and can not get the accuracy from them.
The tighter that sabot fits in your barrel the better the groups will be.

I am an Accuracy Nut. I have stopped all vitals shots on deer.
I now ( for the last 15 years have placed all shots at the spine just above the shoulder and every deer falls straight to the ground. I hunt in Michigan and we have fences very close to our stands sometimes. We need instant drops or we may loose that deer. We can not always go accross that fence.

Anyway that Barnes all copper bullet is supposed to expand to 6 razor sharp peddles and retain all of it's weight. They are accurate. Hydrostatic shock is what kills deer. My search for the perfect bullet will never be over.
Hope this helps. By the way all of this testing was done in a scienetific manner and not off the hood of a truck. Every thing was charted and chrongraphed.

 

[alsaqr]

"The Yellow sabots slide down the barrel easy but wont group...."

Had the same experience with my Encore: It did not like the Easy Glides at all. The SST bullets in the short black sabots load very hard but my Encore makes 1" groups with them at 100 yards.

Tried the 250 grain SST in the new Hornady "low drag" sabots. The accuracy is not quite as good as with the short black sabots but they load much easier.

 

[Mark whiz]

I too would think that jacketed bullets would help get you the exit hole you want. I would go with heavy bullets (300 to 350gr) in order to get better accuracy with the heavy powder loads you're using. I know that using 110gr of Pyro in my Knight, I had to go to 400gr sabots for good accuracy - 100gr Pyro for 350gr sabots, and 90gr Pyro for 300gr sabots.

The copper-clad Powerbelts could be a good choice for that exit hole as well. I once took a 150lb boar with the 348gr aero-tipped Powerbelt at maybe 25yds and it took Porky completely off his feet and there was zero bullet expansion - it just cut a .50cal hole straight thru both shoulders.

 

[Wildfire]

Power belts.

You guys are hitting the nail on the head. I like the heavy bullets and they seem to be more accurate as a rule. My son used a Traditions rifle for a while and it shot the loads I metioned in my last post very well.
Some shoot those power belts. I never cared for them and could never get the accuracy I wanted. But at 25 yards I can only Imagine that any good bullet would have given that hog a bad day with that shot placement. Good Shot. Hope you get many More.
I used to shoot a "White" .50 cal. The best round was a 480 grain all lead bullet with 80 grs, of "P" and it would DROP every thing it hit in it's tracks.
Those were the most accurate rifles I had ever fired. But, That is a whole new subject. Happy Hunting.

 

[Cocked & Locked]

I just got my New Englander .54 out and sighted it in. I've not hunted with it in a few years, but it used to drop them in their tracks.

90 grains of Pyrodex RS groups T/C 455 grain Maxi-Hunters at about 3" @ 75 yards. 80 grains opens the group up too much.

I think Wednesday mornning when I go hunting again, I'll leave the .50 traditions at home and take the sidehammer .54. I've shot a bunch of deer with the .54 in past years and don't recall ever looking for any of them.

Oh yeah, my old eyes cheat...I've got a 4X scope on the .50 and a 2X on the .54. My .45 is still open sights though.

 

[Pancho]

The power belt bullets can be overpowered. It is best to work up a load with any bullet that has a skirt including the all lead minieballs. The typical load for a 58 cal. minieball during the civil war was 60 grains.

 

[dispatch55126]

Just use a good old patched ball. It the most accurate bullet out of my Hawkens.

 

[Wildfire]

Round Ball

His barrel may have a different twist. 1 in 48 is the fastest twist that will throw a round ball right.

 

[Omnivore]

What did the bullet look like?

C&L: I assume you recovered your bullet. Was it over-expanded or fragmented? If so, slow it down and see what you can do with it. If you need that full charge for accuracy, maybe there's a similar weight bullet that's solid tipped instead of HP. You may want to resort to casting your own and playing with the alloy for proper hardness.

On the other hand, if a person wants the hide the lack of an exit hole is a good thing.

On yet another hand, if your bullet is dumping its energy inside the deer, instead of exiting, it's doing more damage and the need to track that deer will be somewhat less likely, all else being equal. Besides, if you blow the heart, there's not going to be much blood, no matter the number of holes. My son put a fist-sized exit hole in a deer this fall, but there was little blood, unless you count the chunk of lung that fell out (OK, enough gory details).

To All: Jacketed bullets and sabots can be great, but they're illegal for muzzle loader season in some areas. My home state is one of them.

 

[Cocked & Locked]

C&L: I assume you recovered your bullet. Was it over-expanded or fragmented?

I did not recover either bullet...and I should have. That would have answered lots of questions. I field dressed both of them in the same spot. I'll check tomorrow and see if the bullets were left by the gut-pile scavengers.

You are right, I probably need to slow it down. The blackpowder deer season ends here Friday. I'll probably just hunt with my .54 TC and leave the .50 powder/bullet testing until after deer season.

Points well taken...thanks for all the comments folks!

 

[sundance44s]

Sounds like you already knew the 54cal hit like a freight train ..I`ve always been a much better shooter than tracker , something went wrong with my Indian roots . I`ve always deer hunted with 54cal patched round balls ...thats one big ball , and shoots straight in a rifle with 1 in 48 twist probally because of the larger dia. I don`t get many 100 yard shots here in MS. our woods are so thick there`s places a rabbit can`t go . I did test my 54 round ball loads at 100 yards just to see how much drop I would have ..with 80 grs of powder it was something like 3 inches low at 100 yards ...Not a hard one to figure if the shot ever presented it`s self .

 

[Harve Curry]

As a comparison note, I recovered a 295gr Hornady poly tipped bullet, shot from a TC Encore 50cal with a sabot. The range was 302 yards, double lunged the bull elk in his bed under a cedar tree, and exited the far side into the ground. Only deformed the tip. Lungs were jellied and the elk never got up.

 

[RSVP2RIP]

try a lead bullet without a hollowpoint. Sam Fadala (author of Blackpowder Handbook) say that because they are pure lead they do upset alot but still penetrate like the dickins. T/C Maxiball is on that my father and grandfather used exclusively and gramps shot a moose that drop dead at the shot, froma .45 no less (hey, nobody thinks the 45/70 is underpowered). I think they were aroun 300 grains.

 

[Cocked & Locked]

*&%#@*? Black Powder Rifles

Actually, I'm thinking about digging a deep hole and burying my three muzzleloaders.

This morning at 9:00, I shot a small racked large bodied buck with my .54.

An hour later, I went to the spot where I shot it. It bled heavy both sides (in/out holes) for about 30 feet. Then the blood trail completley stopped. This would have been my fifth deer this season.

We looked for almost four hours and never found any more blood or any other sign of the deer. I hate it when that happens. It rarely happens to me when using a centerfire.

I'm sitting out the next two final days of blackpowder season.

At 64, I'm not new to this game...easily harvested 200+deer since I've been hunting. I don't like crawling thru briar thickets on my hands and knees looking for red.

We also grid searched a large encompassing area...all to no avail.

I guess the scavengers have to eat too.

I'll be back in the woods Saturday morning with one of my bolt guns. :banghead:

 

[Harve Curry]

Are you allowed to use a dog to find your deer?
We can't in NM.

 

[rantingredneck]

Have you ever tried the 303 gr. Remington Core-Lokt Saboted HP's? I've shot them through several CVA rifles and a couple of Traditions inlines and always got good performance accuracy wise (at a minimum I got 2-3" 100 yd. groups out of them, some guns liked them better than that). They also have always fully penetrated and left crater sized exit wounds.

3 or 4 seasons ago my father in law shot a large doe at 125 yds. that was quartering toward him. The bullet entered just forward of the near side shoulder and exited the far side hindquarter. Penetration was probably 30" or so overall and the exit wound was almost the size of my fist. Not a shot I'd recommend taking with them as there was a lot of meat lost, but just using that story to demonstrate what they're capable of. I think he was shooting a 90 gr. charge at that time.

There was no tracking of that deer needed either.

Lately I've started using the Hornady Speed Sabots with 250 gr. SST polymer tipped bullets. I shoot 150 gr. of 777 and I get 1" to 1.5" groups at 100yds. with them. I've shot 6 deer with them so far and none has gone more than 10 or 15 yds. from where hit. Most fold in their tracks. I have had a couple of those bullets do what you're describing in your OP. They basically blow up inside the animal and don't exit. I haven't lost one due to this yet as they always have dropped within sight.

If I ever lose one to them I'll likely go back to the Corelokts with 90-100 gr. powder charge.

 

[Wildfire]

Bullets

Hey there,
Just dropped a nice 9 point this morning with my Encore.
I'd show off the pics, but I don't know how to get them on here. Anyway,
250 grain RED HOT (Barnes Bullets) packaged by Knight. This is an all copper bullet with a huge hollow point. 80 grains of Pyrodex "P" and the Rem. 209 muzzlerloader only primer. It did not blow thru. Found that bullet in the passenger side shoulder. But killed the buck pretty dead. The bullet expanded 100% just like their adds show. And looks to be all there with no parts broken off. My son also shot an 8 point with the same bullet in a 300 grainer, same powder charge. Killed that one real dead too.
These were also among the most accurate bullets we have tested. running well under an inch at 100 meters. The bullet on the 8 pointer blew thru and we could not find it.
Just something to chew on.

 

[oneshooter]

I have used a 50cal PRB with 100gr of Goex 2fg to hunt deer for 20+ years. Never lost one that I hit. For Elk I use a 62cal PRB with 120gr load of the same powder. never lost one with that load either! The PRB will kill well within its range limits.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

 

[Loyalist Dave]

My .54 drops them where they stand, and a neighbors inline will reach out 120 yards, did so last week. He complains of the same thing..., no exit wound and no blood from the entrance wound. (His only went 30 yards BTW) I wonder, though, if the last two deer were shot at 80 yards or less, why do you worry about going out to 120 yards? I get mine into 50 yard range, and no worries, though my rifle will reach to 100 yards. It doesn't sound like you have a real problem, it just isn't what you're used to, eh?

LD

 

[Millwright]

If your ML is killing deer, you're golden !! So much depends upon the deer's condition, range, shot angle and placement and what it hits, no one is 'expert' enough to predict what happens next. You can shoot three deer from the same range with the same gun/bullet/load and get three different results.

Everyone 'expects' his shot is true and a hit deer will 'bleed out' in 'X' amount of time/distance, or leave a good blood trail. Based upon 50 yrs experience, it ain't so. Too many variables. A scared deer will go a lot further than one shot just ambling by. Often will bleed less, too. Mostly, I suspect, because the 'fear/flight' mechanism is hard at work and hide movement stops up the hole. Sometimes they go further than you expect, and sometimes they will stop and layup quickly if you don't chase after them. In many ways ML hunting is more like archery than what we've long since become accustomed to. You don't have the multiple shots and monster impacts of modern slugs, so shot placement, observation and tracking at the proper time becomes paramount. >MW