Deer hunting with a cap & ball revolver question

[Loyalist Dave]

I e-mailed the distric officer in Alabama and this is what they said. "As the digest states "handguns" are legal. Yes a .44 is larger than a .40 caliber so the black powder .44 caliber revolver is legal to hunt deer with during the hunting season in Alabama". So I guess that means a cap/ball revolver is legal to hunt with.

Alabama is probably more civilized than Maryland, but what you have is this fellow's opinion, not the actual law...., or he may be quoting the law..., he doesn't tell you, and as you correctly point out..., you guess that means you can hunt with the cap-n-ball. In Maryland if you were charged by another DNR officer for the violation, the fact that you produced the email, or had the actual officer who wrote the email summoned to court, would not trump the actual law. The judge might cut you a break..., or he might not. I think in AL you'd have a better chance of being infront of a judge who is friendly to hunting, so you'd probably be OK.

LD

 

[DeepSouth]

Smokepole14

Shot placement is key for any caliber gun you hunt with. The only difference with a revolver is lack of energy so yes I would not shoot unless it was a doe at maybe 25 to 30 yards. I do believe the hardest part of the equation would be the shot placement but at 25 yards I feel pretty confident in myself. Now that I know that by law my gun is large enough I'll check in on whether if you can use a revolver or just a single shot. Preciate the info guys

You might also want to ask about ammo as well. I know here in AL we have to use "Expanding ammo" I'm not sure if the law would apply to BP or not. I would be surprised if anything would expand much out of a BP Revolver, but you may legally have to use something other than a ball or rounded conical.

I've considered trying to take a deer with my 58, but I've never tried it. I recently got a 45 acp conversion cylinder for mine so I'll probably try it this year with the 45 cylinder.

 

[the Black Spot]

I shot a doe at SIX yards with an 1860 army. 30 grains of powder under a .457 rb. Heart shot,she ran 30 yards. NO EXIT WOUND.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Just to expand on what Loyalist Dave said. In PA the "digest" says right in it that the digest is NOT the law. (Every time a WCO cites the digest in court as the law, I get the judge to throw it out as hearsay) That actual law is found in your statutes and hunting regulations. Here in PA, only centerfire guns, archery equip and muzzleloaders may be used for deer. Some Game Commission employees were telling folks that C&B revolvers were muzzleloaders and other were saying they don't load from the muzzle, so are not legal. Obviously they don't load from the muzzle, and when the conflicts were pointed out they ruled against such revolvers.

When some game officials are unsure of the answer, they will read the digest to you and let you interpret it. As LD said, your interpretation might ultimately be wrong.

Game violations here were just raised to misdemeanor and felony level. It would be unfortunate to get a criminal record over something so trivial as whether the digest is worded kind of "fuzzy." Nearly every game agency in the country has a legal department in their main state capital office. Ask them for a cite to chapter and verse of the actual statute and regs. Then read the actual laws and regs for yourself.

 

[Legionnaire]

zimmerstutzen, are you aware of an online source for PA game law? I'd like to see what's there.

Edit (1)- just found the following: http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/058/chapter141/subchapCtoc.html

Interesting that the code (at least in this section) doesn't clearly define a muzzleloader.

Edit (2)- I'm still playing with this. The PA Code (§ 141.43. Deer.) states:

(c) Muzzloading deer season.
(1) Permitted devices. It is lawful to hunt deer during the muzzleloading deer season with a muzzleloading firearm. The firearm’s ignition mechanism must consist of a percussion cap, primer or flintlock fired design. The firearm must be a .44 caliber or larger single-barrel long gun or a .50 caliber or larger single-barrel handgun that propels single-projectile ammunition.

From this construction, "muzzleloading" seems to be a label rather than a functional definition, as the functional definition contained herein reflects the ignition system, legal caliber, and single barrel (interesting that it does not exclude smokeless powder). I'm puzzled as to how this necessarily excludes cap and ball revolvers of .50 caliber or greater. I would think the law would state explicitly, "The firearm must have a single chamber that is loaded through the muzzle of the barrel." That would be clear.

Maybe a letter to the AG is in order ...

 

[arcticap]

While you've been editing, I've been typing.
The game/conservation dept. law enforcement divisions generally have written policy regarding how they interpret their laws. Inquiring with a higher up CLEO should provide honest & useful information about their established policies.
When there's a gray area they usually go to their legal division (or AG's Office) for clarification. In part that's how they decide to make recommendations about which laws need to be fixed or amended. If there's ambiguity, an internal dispute or legal complaint, a court decision or something new and not already covered by policy or law then they react. And they probably also follow any relevant federal definitions unless there's a state law that's in conflict.


Under 141.44 Bear, (b)(1) permitted devices, it states:

(iv) A muzzleloading firearm. The firearm’s ignition mechanism must consist of a percussion cap, primer or flintlock fired design. The firearm must be a .44 caliber or larger single-barrel long gun or a .50 caliber or larger single-barrel handgun that propels single-projectile ammunition.

Under 141.41 Deer, it states:

(b) Flintlock muzzleloading deer season.

(1) Permitted devices. It is lawful to hunt deer during the flintlock muzzleloading deer season with a flintlock muzzleloading firearm. The firearm must be an original or similar reproduction of muzzleloading firearm manufactured prior to 1800. The firearm’s ignition mechanism must consist of a hammer containing a naturally occurring stone that is spring propelled onto an iron or steel frizzen which, in turn, creates sparks to ignite a priming powder. The firearm must have open sights and be a .44 caliber or larger single-barrel long gun or a .50 caliber or larger single-barrel handgun that propels single-projectile ammunition.

 

[Legionnaire]

And §141.22.(a)(3) Small game, reads:

(3) A muzzleloading rifle or handgun. The firearm must be .40 caliber or less, that projects single-projectile ammunition.

What seems to be missing from the code is a clear statement of whether cap and ball revolvers, regardless of caliber, qualify as muzzleloaders. They clearly are not centerfires, so they are either muzzleloaders, or an undefined/non-permitted class. zimmerstutzen's posts would suggest that the Game Commission hasn't been entirely clear on this, either.

Edit: I just sent the following to the AG; it will be interesting to see what kind of a reply I get, if any.

Dear Attorney General Kelly,

I am writing to request clarification of the Pennsylvania Code as it applies to the definition of a muzzleloading firearm permissible for hunting. Specifically, are cap and ball revolvers permitted under the game laws that allow muzzleloading handguns?

For example, §141.22(a)(3) of the PA Code lists “A muzzleloading rifle or handgun” as permitted devices for the hunting of small game, further specifying that “The firearm must be .40 caliber or less, that projects single-projectile ammunition.” Thus, is a .36 caliber cap and ball revolver, in which each chamber of the cylinder is loaded with powder and ball from the front or “muzzle” of the chamber (albeit not through the muzzle of the barrel), and ignited by a percussion cap, permitted under the law?

I have attempted unsuccessfully to find in the code a definition of a “muzzleloading handgun” that clearly either permits or excludes the class of cap and ball revolvers. If such a definition exists, I would welcome the specific citation. If such does not exist, I respectfully ask you to issue an opinion that defines cap and ball revolvers as muzzloading handguns for hunting purposes. Otherwise, these traditional and capable firearms are effectively excluded from use by Pennsylvania sportsmen and women.

Thank you very much for your consideration.

Sincerely,

Etc.

 

[Busyhands94]

Deep South, what if you took a razor blade and cut an X on the nose of the bullet? i do that in my Super Companion, it delivers explosive results even with the tiny .22 bullet. you can rip a pop can filled with water top to bottom, aimed COM of course. i bet that would be pretty decent damage with a .44 shot into game. you can also do this with a hollow point bullet, you wouldn't believe what kind of damage you can get.

 

[BP pistol hunter]

What kind of wimpy powder did you use?

This is to the Black Spot who claims shot a deer with 30gr and a ball and it ran 30 yards with no pass thru. What wimpy powder were you using?? Never use Goex or any of the Holy Blacks for hunting they just do not develop the necessary energy needed for big game the only exception is Swiss powder this is the only real black powder than produces sufficient power for big game hunting If you are serious about hunting. If you wish to hunt big game you must only use 777 or Swiss any other powder just does not develop the pressures needed. Only use steel frame revolvers no brass models please as these cannot handle the high pressure created by these powders. I am getting 1250fps/450ftlbs with 37gr of 777, a wad and a .454 ball out of my 12 in stainless Pietta 1858. I get an honest 1000fps with 32gr of 777 and a 240 flat nosed conical which translates to over 530ftlbs of energy. This my friends is in the 41 magnum ballistic territory but with a bigger diameter and harder hitting projectile. I have been hunting with this gun for over a decade and have taken many deer and hogs out to 50 yards. The black powder editor for Gun Digest magazine, Mr. Hovey Smith has come up with even better ballistics. Hovey and I have been closely working up loads and sharing the info for hunting. Hovey just informed me that he is getting over 578ftlbs of energy in his Ruger old army with 40gr of 777 and the same 240gr projectile that I have been using. He will film several hunts with it this year and has his tests available on youtube. You know my link you can see some of my kills and you may visit the yahoo percussion revolver group and check out my hunting album depicting a small fraction of my kills. All my shots are thru and thru complete penetration and the animals are either bang flops or run a very short distance before expiring.

 

[junkman_01]

30 yards is a short distance and a projectile that exits is just wasting it's energy!

 

[darkerx]

@BP Pistol Hunter: I respectfully disagree with your appraisal of Holy Blacks... The Swiss 1 black powder I use has been made this way since 1848... and it is one of the very few REAL BLACK POWDER still on the market... AND it gives 1430ft/s and 649ft-lbs in my walker (with a tight .457 / 143gr round ball), or 1488ft/s and 703,6ft-lbs in my 18" remington 58...

Long Live the Holy Black!!!

 

[BP pistol hunter]

Read my previous post

Darkerx if you would have read my previous post CAREFULLY you would have seen that the only two powders that will produce these high energy levels are 777 and SWISS! So in effect you are in agreement with me! Keep your powder dry! :banghead:

 

[BP pistol hunter]

Junkman, you are partially right, a projectile that exits is expending it's energy some where else, but you also have to remember that if the projectile enters and exits the body cavity with sufficient force it will disrupt more tissue and create a more devastating entrance and exit wound especially if it a broad 45 caliber bullet in the 240 to 300gr class with a flat point which will in effect cause massive bleeding from not one but two holes killing much faster.

 

[darkerx]

Darkerx if you would have read my previous post CAREFULLY you would have seen that the only two powders that will produce these high energy levels are 777 and SWISS! So in effect you are in agreement with me! Keep your powder dry! :banghead:

I read your" post CAREFULLY, but you wrote that "goex or ANY" black powder shouldn't be used for hunting... then 777 or Swiss were possible... I infered that you were seeing Swiss as some kind of substitute (like 777). I'm pleased to see I was wrong...

 

[BP pistol hunter]

Good now that thats settled, good choice of gun and powder combo. You should really check out the new 240gr and 255gr VKV BG 456 universal flat nosed projectiles made by Kaido. This will give you a substantial boost in power and effective range in your Walker.These new projectiles work on every cap and ball revolver including the Ruger old army. They are accurate and hit harder down range. You can get more info on this projectile by contacting it's creator at the following email: [email protected]

 

[Legionnaire]

Kicking this thread to report on the reply I finally got from the AG's office (see post #32). I don't have it in front of me, but will reproduce it when I do. In short, the letter said the AG only advises the Governor, and will not issue opinions otherwise. Remarkably UNhelpful response.


Oh, and rereading the code again, it would appear that a cap-and-ball revolver that has been fitted with a conversion cylinder to fire centerfire ammunition would be legal in the regular season. Guess I could hunt deer with my ROA with the Howell's/R&D cylinder installed.

 

[Smokepole14]

That's not very helpful if they only advise the governor. But I also have a Howells cartridge conversion so I might give it a try. I load it up with the bullets that bp pistol hunter was refering to, thery are made by kaido and they are excellent bullets.

 

[Legionnaire]

Here is what I got back from the PA Attorney General's office:

Dear ...

Your recent correspondence to the Office of the Attorney General has been forwarded to me for a response.

Under Pennsylvania law and the Commonwealth Attorneys Act, the Attorney General is empowered to give legal advice and opinions only to the Governor or to the head of a state government agency. The Attorney General has no authority to advise local government, public officials or private citizens. Accordingly, the Office of the Attorney General is not able to give you an opinion on the matter you have presented in your letter.

We recommend that you consult with a private attorney who would be able to research this matter for you.

Sincerely,

Frank G. Fina
Chief Deputy Attorney General
Criminal Prosecutions Section

As you can see, completely unhelpful. Kind of silly that one can't ask the highest law enforcement official in the commonwealth for an opinion. Guess I could write to the Governor. :banghead:

 

[Smokepole14]

I'd go a head and hunt. If they ain't willing to help it's their fault. Stupidty never pays off and there's more of it every day.:banghead:

 

[Omnivore]

Omnivore

My Pietta Remington loaded with 30 grains Goex FFF and a Buffalo 180 grain conical yeilds an average of 1047 fps. That's 40 S&W territory, but with a bigger bullet. Write-up with photos here;
http://blog.joehuffman.org/2010/02/16/PlayingWithFire.aspx

At close range with good shot placement it's more than good enough. In WA State however, though you can hunt deer legally with a .380 auto, they specify minimum barrel length and powder charge for ML handguns, making the Remington illegal. A Colt Walker would fit their requirements as I read them.

So it's all about the local regs.

 

[Lunie]

Missouri is much more clear on such things... http://mdc.mo.gov/hunting-trapping/regulations/deer-regulations/2011-firearms-deer-hunting

(With some of my emphasis added)

"Methods allowed
Methods allowed during all portions of the firearms deer season, except the muzzleloader portion.
Centerfire pistol, revolver or rifle using expanding-type bullets. Legal ammunition includes lead bullets, copper bullets and bullets made of other material designed to expand.
Shotgun (including .410) with slugs only
Air-powered gun, .40 caliber or larger, charged only from an external high compression power source (external hand pump, air tank, or air compressor)
A muzzleloading or cap-and-ball firearm .40 caliber or larger and capable of firing only a single projectile at one discharge; in-lines and scopes are allowed
Multiple-barreled muzzleloading or cap-and-ball firearms and/or muzzleloading or cap-and-ball handguns, including revolvers, .40 caliber or larger are allowed and may be carried in addition to a muzzleloading or cap-and-ball rifle
A longbow, compound bow or recurve bow of any draw weight; hand-held string releasing devices, illuminated sights, scopes and quick point sights are allowed
Crossbow
Atlatl, which is defined as a rod or narrow board-like device used to launch, through a throwing motion of the arm, a dart 5 to 8 feet in length.
Methods prohibited (in use or in possession)
Self-loading firearms with capacity of more than 11 cartridges in magazine and chamber combined
Ammunition propelling more than one projectile at a single discharge (such as buckshot)
Full hard metal case projectiles
Fully automatic firearms
Any sighting device that casts a beam of light on the game
Electronic calls or electronically activated calls"

And

"Muzzleloader portion
This portion of the firearms season allows hunters additional time to hunt using muzzleloaders.

Season dates
Dec. 17–27 statewide
Methods
a muzzleloading or cap-and-ball firearm .40 caliber or larger and capable of firing only a single projectile at one discharge; in-lines and scopes are allowed
multiple-barreled muzzleloading or cap-and-ball firearms and/or muzzleloading or cap-and-ball handguns, including revolvers, .40 caliber or larger are allowed and may be carried in addition to a muzzleloading or cap-and-ball rifle"

 

[zimmerstutzen]

When a term is not defined under PA law, the courts look to the plain english term. Muzzle loader ie loads from the muzzle. Cap and Ball revs do not load from the muzzle. A Ferguson breech loading flint lock, does not load from the muzzle and is therefore not legal in PA for deer. Nor is the breech loading percussion Sharps, the Burnside, etc.

I once asked if a Pope centerfire muzzle loader rifle would be legal and the WCO's were unanimous in saying no. ( a bullet is loaded through the muzzle through a false muzzle and a centerfire case full of powder is put in the breech.)

Yet there is no definition of muzzleloader to go by. (Nor is there a definition of center fire or rim fire in PA) Rules are that rimfire rifles are not legal for deer. What if the gun is both rim fire AND centerfire, like my Wesson rifle (38 Extra long ammo was available in rim fire or centerfire)

 

[72coupe]

I would think if there is not a satisfactory definition of muzzle loaders in the game law there may be a better one in other parts of the law.

 

[Legionnaire]

72coupe, my thought, too, but haven't been able to find anything as yet.