Deer rifle. 243 vs 30-30

[meanmrmustard]

You were arguing the physics of the "heavy bullet brush" equation, then switched to the "four rules argument" by introducing the inability to identify target. Never presented until you did. Lots and lots of game effectively identified in brush by lots and lots of hunters.

I'm interpreting here, so bare with me, but I believe that what Kachok is trying to convey is that a heavy, slow moving bullet from a compact carbine length rifle is good deer Meds in brushy area due to the shorter range shots. Better penetration, better platform, swift kills in the thick stuff. There is NO argument as to which caliber deflects less, be cause no one who gives two hoots about their quarry is shooting through brush anyway, and neither should you. I'm sure many people have IDed game in the thickets, but some have also shot other hunters. Not a bright idea to shoot at what kinda looks like a deer, but is actually your buddy.

So, your argument is questionable at best: Which caliber do I really want to miss with shooting through brush? Add lib your favorite cartridge, then pull the trigger, because you will miss or worse; wound your deer, or possibly hurt someone. You will undoubtedly do one of these.

 

[Kachok]

In rswartsell's defense I understand the temptation to shoot into the thicket. I have had days where no deer stepped out of the dense underbrush around my treestand, but I knew exactly where they were in that tangled mess of vines and thorn bushes I could hear them and see the vines move as they passed. Tempting but I'll pass, plenty more where he came from.

 

[68wj]

A decent demonstration of bullet deflection: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot40.htm

 

[Art Eatman]

Shooting through brush and hitting twigs and branches between the gun and Bambi is silly. All bullets will deflect somewhat, from .45-70 on down. The key variable is the distance between the branch and the game animal. That's been tested numerous times in The American Rifleman's Dope Bag, and the tests all produced the same result. Easy for a hoped-for heart shot to be a gut shot, if not a miss.

"Brush gun" means light and handy, quick-pointing for use in somewhat confined situations--not for shooting through brush. (Well, okay, maybe those with less intellect than Forrest Gump.)

.243 test case "study": I had a shot at a buck with my .243 at about fifty yards. Sierra 85-grain HPBT. In the line of sight with the buck's heart was a prickly pear pad. Don't ask me why I was bound and determined to shoot through that pad, but I did. Bang, whop, plop. He fell right there. Okay, so I walk up. Sheesh! I'd shot through FIVE pads. The path curved up and to the right. I didn't come anywhere near the heart. The remains of the bullet had hit just under his ear. Dumb me, but I'll take luck over skill any day. Call it a learning experience, not to be repeated.

 

[skidder]

I've had Winchester and Marlin lever 30-30s, but my 2 bolt action 243s were more accurate. That being said I still have a 30-30 that does fit the bill. Model 54 Winchester carbine with Williams peep sight. Now that's my version a brush 30-30 with some accuracy. Spire point 30-30s from a bolt action are like having a 30-30 magnum. I'm not saying the lever's are not practical, but the ones I've had were not as accurate as my bolts (possible the type of ammo). And you have to know there's a reason most bolt action ammo is spire point.

Ok...I'm starting to ramble. I guess what I'm trying to say is I would choose the 30-30 caliber over 243 if the 30-30 was a bolt action so I could use spire bullets.

 

[goon]

goon,

Did you ever own and fire extensively a lever action (at relatively short distances)?

I'm not going to say it's impossible, what with Lee Harvey Oswald making world record time with a Mannlicher Carcano, but bolts are just plain slower and designed for distance and precision. Period.

Yep, I've owned five of them over the years (I think) and shot a lot more. I love lever actions and think that at close range they're great deer rifles - some like the 99 Savage and BLR chamber rounds that can reach out accurately to 300 yards or more. Even the 30-30 only drops about 6" at 200 yards and still has plenty of energy and penetration, so I'd call it capable at that range. They're also more accurate than they get credit for. They can also be fast, but fast is as much from who the shooter is as it is from the rifle. Also, I don't know that "fast" is always good in a hunting rifle. If you don't get the deer with the first shot you may get it with a second, but anything more than that is just slinging lead into the woods. A precise first shot is better than a dozen hasty follow-up shots.
I still think a bolt action firing an adequately powered round with the scope set to a low power is an excellent deer rifle and probably more versatile than the ol' 30-30.

Also, I don't know if actual studies have been done about which rounds actually penetrate brush better, but conventional wisdom isn't always the truth. For my uses, I try to shoot past the brush or around the brush, but not through it.

 

[Legionnaire]

Either would make for a great deer rifle. I have owned and hunted with both. At this point, I don't still own a .30-30, but there are several .243s in the safe. My preference only. YMMV.

 

[JEB]

Also, I don't know that "fast" is always good in a hunting rifle. If you don't get the deer with the first shot you may get it with a second, but anything more than that is just slinging lead into the woods. A precise first shot is better than a dozen hasty follow-up shots.
I still think a bolt action firing an adequately powered round with the scope set to a low power is an excellent deer rifle and probably more versatile than the ol' 30-30.

big +1 to that!

 

[rswartsell]

So Art,

Should we now call you Forrest?

P.S. forgive me, rereading your post, you said less intellect than Forrest, so that wouldn't really be appropriate would it?

 

[goon]

That might be appropriate... if he hadn't learned from his mistake and shared it with the rest of us to prevent us from doing the same thing.

 

[Art Eatman]

Everybody has the occasional Gumpy Moment. The deal is to not repeat any of them.

 

[slow944]

Moot Point

I just read thru the whole thread and it seems that the OP went with a 270. I have a couple of lever actions and I have some bolt actions as well. I once owned a 243 T/C Encore, that's my only experience with that caliber. I do love the 30-30 though.

 

[Art Eatman]

Yeah, well, we had a good time, nattering away quite happily.