sonoranjack
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Defend youself and then RUN LIKE HECK??
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sonoranjack
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hawkeye755
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Mannlicher
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My only comment is that running is not prudent. The chances of you getting nailed are high, and that bit of absconding will look real suspicious. Your protagonist will surely turn you in.
That having been said, I would not let laws to the contrary stop me from being able to protect myself, or from acting if the situation called for action. I have always been more afraid of a perp with gun/knife, than a jury.
That having been said, I would not let laws to the contrary stop me from being able to protect myself, or from acting if the situation called for action. I have always been more afraid of a perp with gun/knife, than a jury.
Hkmp5sd
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sonoranjack,
I don't know everything there is to know about self-defense vs. the Law. What I do know comes from 25+ years of reading about the subject, taking classes and watching training films. This includes lessons from LEOs and lawyers.
In all of that time, this is the first time I've ever heard of someone recommending taking the BG's weapon and leaving the scene of the shooting. In every instance I can recall, the instructor insisted that you should not move anything at the scene because this can be taken as you trying to make an unlawful use of deadly force appear to be lawfull. And unless you are still in danger, they have all stated to wait for the police, not flee the scene.
I can't help but think that if you pick up the BG's weapon and leave the scene, you are then going to have a very hard time proving the weapon belonged to the BG. The obvious conclusion will be that you went and acquired a weapon after the fact because the BG was unarmed when you shot him. To me, doing this gives the appearance you are trying to hide something.
However, most do recommend not giving a detailed statement to the police immediately following the shooting, but to ask for a lawyer. Unfortunately, some LEOs will view this as though you have something to hide.
I don't know everything there is to know about self-defense vs. the Law. What I do know comes from 25+ years of reading about the subject, taking classes and watching training films. This includes lessons from LEOs and lawyers.
In all of that time, this is the first time I've ever heard of someone recommending taking the BG's weapon and leaving the scene of the shooting. In every instance I can recall, the instructor insisted that you should not move anything at the scene because this can be taken as you trying to make an unlawful use of deadly force appear to be lawfull. And unless you are still in danger, they have all stated to wait for the police, not flee the scene.
I can't help but think that if you pick up the BG's weapon and leave the scene, you are then going to have a very hard time proving the weapon belonged to the BG. The obvious conclusion will be that you went and acquired a weapon after the fact because the BG was unarmed when you shot him. To me, doing this gives the appearance you are trying to hide something.
However, most do recommend not giving a detailed statement to the police immediately following the shooting, but to ask for a lawyer. Unfortunately, some LEOs will view this as though you have something to hide.
sonoranjack
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Hawkeye755
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Sonaranjack
I am a LEO. I have investigated numerous shootings as well as several homicides. I do not have 18 years of experience, but I can say that the information that your "expert" has provided you is dubious at best. My advice to you is this.
1) If you are involved in a justifiable shoot and it is safe for you to remain at the scene. Do so. When the officers show up tell them you were involved and that you will talk to them after speaking with counsel. If it is not safe for you to stay then get someplace safe and call 911. Tell them you were involved in a shooting and where you are. When officers show up tell them you will talk to them after speaking with a lawyer. Then contact your lawyer immediately. Understand that if you do not tell the police anything, and even if you do, you may be arrested regardless.
The easier and simpler you make it for the police and the prosecuting attourny the better for you. The easiest way to win at trial is to not have to go in the first place. Remember that. The more details that are in dispute will mean there is a greater chance that you will be standing before a jury of your peers.
2) Do not remove the badguys weapon. If you do then you are opening yourself up to a lot of problems. First you will have to prove that the gun was at the scene. I do not know how much you know about evidence collection, but I am guessing I may have a bit more experience then you in this. Getting fingerprints off of guns is 50/50 at best. That is if it is collected and stored correctly. The burden of proof will now be on you to prove that the gun was there. Do you feel confident in your knowledge in the heat of the moment to properly collect the gun and preserve the evidence?
Eyewitnesses. Do you want to trust your life to someone elses versions of events. What if they didn't see his gun? What if they are wrong in what they saw? What if they only saw the part where you shot him, walked over to him picked up something off the ground near him, then ran off. To them it may looked like you just robbed him. I will say it again. Do you want to trust your like to someone elses version of events.
Your lawyer. This is something where the old addage is true. You get what you pay for. I don't know about you, but I cannot afford the likes of Barry Sheck, Johnnie Cochran, F Lee Bailey. If you can then the better for you. If all you can afford is a public defender then your chances are not as good. DOn't get me wrong, whee I am the public defender to a pretty good job all things considered, but they aren't the best money can buy. Assuming your lawyer will be able to magicly be able to solve all your problems is not a good idea. They are people, they can make mistakes and have poor judgement at times. Get the best lawyer you can afford and question them about everything. Make sure they are going to work for your best interest and work hard.
This is my $.02. Feel free to read it and really think about it, or ignore it and say I don't know what I am talking about. I truly hope that none of us are in a situation where we have to put any of this information into action.
I am a LEO. I have investigated numerous shootings as well as several homicides. I do not have 18 years of experience, but I can say that the information that your "expert" has provided you is dubious at best. My advice to you is this.
1) If you are involved in a justifiable shoot and it is safe for you to remain at the scene. Do so. When the officers show up tell them you were involved and that you will talk to them after speaking with counsel. If it is not safe for you to stay then get someplace safe and call 911. Tell them you were involved in a shooting and where you are. When officers show up tell them you will talk to them after speaking with a lawyer. Then contact your lawyer immediately. Understand that if you do not tell the police anything, and even if you do, you may be arrested regardless.
The easier and simpler you make it for the police and the prosecuting attourny the better for you. The easiest way to win at trial is to not have to go in the first place. Remember that. The more details that are in dispute will mean there is a greater chance that you will be standing before a jury of your peers.
2) Do not remove the badguys weapon. If you do then you are opening yourself up to a lot of problems. First you will have to prove that the gun was at the scene. I do not know how much you know about evidence collection, but I am guessing I may have a bit more experience then you in this. Getting fingerprints off of guns is 50/50 at best. That is if it is collected and stored correctly. The burden of proof will now be on you to prove that the gun was there. Do you feel confident in your knowledge in the heat of the moment to properly collect the gun and preserve the evidence?
Eyewitnesses. Do you want to trust your life to someone elses versions of events. What if they didn't see his gun? What if they are wrong in what they saw? What if they only saw the part where you shot him, walked over to him picked up something off the ground near him, then ran off. To them it may looked like you just robbed him. I will say it again. Do you want to trust your like to someone elses version of events.
Your lawyer. This is something where the old addage is true. You get what you pay for. I don't know about you, but I cannot afford the likes of Barry Sheck, Johnnie Cochran, F Lee Bailey. If you can then the better for you. If all you can afford is a public defender then your chances are not as good. DOn't get me wrong, whee I am the public defender to a pretty good job all things considered, but they aren't the best money can buy. Assuming your lawyer will be able to magicly be able to solve all your problems is not a good idea. They are people, they can make mistakes and have poor judgement at times. Get the best lawyer you can afford and question them about everything. Make sure they are going to work for your best interest and work hard.
This is my $.02. Feel free to read it and really think about it, or ignore it and say I don't know what I am talking about. I truly hope that none of us are in a situation where we have to put any of this information into action.
Powderman
Member
sonoranjack,
What the good folks are trying to tell you gently is this:
If you, at the scene of the shooting, remove anything at all and then leave, you are opening yourself up for a heap of trouble.
I'll tell you this:
If you have to use deadly force in my jurisdiction,
AND you take the BG's weapon,
AND you flee the scene,
YOU have just given me probable cause to arrest you for Assault 1st Degree (in WA State), or Murder (if the BG dies).
Don't take a chance! If you were justified in shooting, there is a good chance you have nothing to worry about.
But don't take our advice.
Most cops I know will gladly discuss scenarios with you. You should also contact the District Attorney's office, as well as your local procesutor's office.
Your "expert" does not sound credible at all, to say the least.
What the good folks are trying to tell you gently is this:
If you, at the scene of the shooting, remove anything at all and then leave, you are opening yourself up for a heap of trouble.
I'll tell you this:
If you have to use deadly force in my jurisdiction,
AND you take the BG's weapon,
AND you flee the scene,
YOU have just given me probable cause to arrest you for Assault 1st Degree (in WA State), or Murder (if the BG dies).
Don't take a chance! If you were justified in shooting, there is a good chance you have nothing to worry about.
But don't take our advice.
Most cops I know will gladly discuss scenarios with you. You should also contact the District Attorney's office, as well as your local procesutor's office.
Your "expert" does not sound credible at all, to say the least.
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
kannonfyre,
I'd really think very hard about living somewhere else. Really.
Are wooden canes allowed in your country? You can defend yourself quite effectively with one and even avoid marking or cutting your opponent if you strike clothed areas. This will avoid blood on you and your cane.
I wouldn't run away for it attracts attention. I might stroll.
A man was assaulted, officer? Right back there? How dreadful. You know, while you're here, I'd like to report someone stealing my cane from me about thirty minutes ago. He was about my size and build. He was dressed in dark slacks and a light shirt...like me.
Of course, from the way you describe your country's lack of a jury, it might lack other niceties such as probable cause. But if they follow anything like standard investigative practice then the lack of a connection between you and your assailant, lack of motive, and especially the lack of a prior record of felonious assault, armed robbery, mugging and such on your part should pretty much point them somewhere else.
I'd really think very hard about living somewhere else. Really.
Are wooden canes allowed in your country? You can defend yourself quite effectively with one and even avoid marking or cutting your opponent if you strike clothed areas. This will avoid blood on you and your cane.
I wouldn't run away for it attracts attention. I might stroll.
A man was assaulted, officer? Right back there? How dreadful. You know, while you're here, I'd like to report someone stealing my cane from me about thirty minutes ago. He was about my size and build. He was dressed in dark slacks and a light shirt...like me.
Of course, from the way you describe your country's lack of a jury, it might lack other niceties such as probable cause. But if they follow anything like standard investigative practice then the lack of a connection between you and your assailant, lack of motive, and especially the lack of a prior record of felonious assault, armed robbery, mugging and such on your part should pretty much point them somewhere else.
sonoranjack
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hawkeye755
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sonoranjack
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powderman
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Hkmp5sd
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sonoranjack,
I don't understand why you think taking the BG's gun, leaving the scene and talking to your lawyer gives you any benefit over waiting at the scene, telling the cops you want a lawyer and then talking to your lawyer.
In both cases, you talk to your lawyer before giving the police a statement. So what's best for cops and what's best for you are exactly equal. Neither has an advantage.
In your method, you are disturbing and possibly destroying evidence, and then leaving the scene. Both of these actions can be considered illegal and both will cast serious doubt on your side of the story. So what's best for cops has an advantage over what's best for you because you are giving them evidence to hang you.
And to paraphrase a favorite quote on THR, if your firearms instructor w/ 18 years experience as a homicide detective is wrong, YOU are the one that goes to jail, not him.
Just out of curiosity, have you asked your lawyer for the best way to handle a self-defense shooting?
I don't understand why you think taking the BG's gun, leaving the scene and talking to your lawyer gives you any benefit over waiting at the scene, telling the cops you want a lawyer and then talking to your lawyer.
In both cases, you talk to your lawyer before giving the police a statement. So what's best for cops and what's best for you are exactly equal. Neither has an advantage.
In your method, you are disturbing and possibly destroying evidence, and then leaving the scene. Both of these actions can be considered illegal and both will cast serious doubt on your side of the story. So what's best for cops has an advantage over what's best for you because you are giving them evidence to hang you.
And to paraphrase a favorite quote on THR, if your firearms instructor w/ 18 years experience as a homicide detective is wrong, YOU are the one that goes to jail, not him.
Just out of curiosity, have you asked your lawyer for the best way to handle a self-defense shooting?
Baba Louie
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Without too many specifics, assume there will be witnesses.
Retreat as far and as fast as you can till you can't retreat anymore. Shout out the old, "STOP. POLICE"...do your thing (whatever it may be), hopefully to your advantage, leaving everything there if you did not bring it with you. It doesn't belong to you anyway. Witnesses might just remember seeing and hearing you in retreat and calling for BG to stop and your call for the police... maybe. Hopefully.
Walk or Run to the nearest phone, if you're still able to. Call your attorney, telling him/her to contact the police.
Go home. Have a calming tonic or two. Write down what happened. Call your attorney once again, telling him/her where you are, your condition, etc.
If injured, go to the hospital/ER and have att'y meet you there (maybe with the police as they'll be involved shortly soon thereafter anyway).
Don't speak directly to the police other than to say that you were attacked, you defended yourself, you and your att'y will be in soon to make/file your report. Do not INCRIMINATE YOURSELF IN ANY WAY!
If you were attacked, you were in a daze and weren't thinking clearly anyway. Adrenalin's up and you're gonna say and do weird things you may regret anyway.
But I could be wrong.
There's a thread over in GlockTalk/GNG about bad guys picking the wrong victim with one persons account (Road Rep) that is chilling to say the least. I'll try to find it and link it if I can.
http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1379503#post1379503
Adios
Retreat as far and as fast as you can till you can't retreat anymore. Shout out the old, "STOP. POLICE"...do your thing (whatever it may be), hopefully to your advantage, leaving everything there if you did not bring it with you. It doesn't belong to you anyway. Witnesses might just remember seeing and hearing you in retreat and calling for BG to stop and your call for the police... maybe. Hopefully.
Walk or Run to the nearest phone, if you're still able to. Call your attorney, telling him/her to contact the police.
Go home. Have a calming tonic or two. Write down what happened. Call your attorney once again, telling him/her where you are, your condition, etc.
If injured, go to the hospital/ER and have att'y meet you there (maybe with the police as they'll be involved shortly soon thereafter anyway).
Don't speak directly to the police other than to say that you were attacked, you defended yourself, you and your att'y will be in soon to make/file your report. Do not INCRIMINATE YOURSELF IN ANY WAY!
If you were attacked, you were in a daze and weren't thinking clearly anyway. Adrenalin's up and you're gonna say and do weird things you may regret anyway.
But I could be wrong.
There's a thread over in GlockTalk/GNG about bad guys picking the wrong victim with one persons account (Road Rep) that is chilling to say the least. I'll try to find it and link it if I can.
http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1379503#post1379503
Adios
kannonfyre
Member
Hello Byron,
Yes, canes are legal in my country. As added insurance, all one needs to do is get a doctors presciption for a cane so that one can show it to LEOs if they question why a cane is needed.
"Y'see officer I fractured my ankle a month ago and I need the extra support."
The only issue here is that even though I am pushing 30, I still look like i'm in my teens. Carrying a cane would draw some attention (why would a youth like you be needing a cane??).
Thanks for the suggestion though.
Yes, canes are legal in my country. As added insurance, all one needs to do is get a doctors presciption for a cane so that one can show it to LEOs if they question why a cane is needed.
"Y'see officer I fractured my ankle a month ago and I need the extra support."
The only issue here is that even though I am pushing 30, I still look like i'm in my teens. Carrying a cane would draw some attention (why would a youth like you be needing a cane??).
Thanks for the suggestion though.
kannonfyre
Member
Baba Louie,
What you wrote makes a ton of sense! I shall incorporate elements of your suggested course of action into my after-conflict procedure.
What you wrote makes a ton of sense! I shall incorporate elements of your suggested course of action into my after-conflict procedure.
Gordon
Member
Except when you finally meet up with cops you will be smelling of booze, and then guess who comes under more suspicion. Ya know worrying about what ifs is a big waste of time, learn to shoot straight and be humble and above all smart and keep your mouth shut. Just a tip from an old survivor thats been packing a .45 for 45 years!(and I haven't been anybodies punk and none of my family have been harmed either)
sonoranjack
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hkmp5sd
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sonoranjack
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erick
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Powderman
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Excuse me?
Dude, I don't have to behave like anything! I don't have to say a word--and neither do you!!
If I--or ANY police officer--happen upon a scenario that goes on in the manner you described, we don't HAVE to do too much. Why should we?
You've done everything to yourself but put the cuffs on!
I do NOT see how someone who is, as you put it, a "law enforcement professional" would give you advice that will surely land you in jail.
Before you go on with these postings, I strongly urge you to look up the 4th Amendment of the Constitution. Then, look up the definition of probable cause.
After you are finished there, find your State's law concerning the following: tampering with evidence, fleeing the scene, flight to avoid prosecution, and perjury.
Contact your local prosecutor and ask them about your scenario.
Then come back here and jump on me all you wish.
Powderman
Member
Who told you THAT crock of horse manure?
Wanna see a cop get fired--real fast?
Let it be proven that they denied you your right to counsel, or
access to counsel.
Yeah, OK, right, sure.
Ever heard of stuff like coercion and intimidation? Big on the list of things NOT TO DO to witnesses or arrestees.
As Jimi Hendrix would say, it sounds like you're........experienced.
Have you ever been..........experienced?
A guest of the gray bar hotel, perhaps? Hmmmm?
Oleg Volk
Moderator Emeritus
great example of too many laws making each law useless...except to make everyone vulnerable to those who enforce those laws.
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
One thing I noticed was that folks here continued giving advice tailored to the US legal system even after kannonfyre made it perfectly clear that what he lives under is no where close to the US system.
No jury system. No Bill of Rights. No legal recognition of a right to self defense. No legal ownership of ANY weapon...even pepper spray, at least not for carry and self defense.
I pretty much agree with the advice given here...for use in the US.
I would imagine that most of it is useless in his situation. Somehow, I don't think his cops' motto is "To protect and serve,"...even in the abstract.
Sometimes, we don't realize just how fortunate we are in the US. When the history of the nations of the world over the past century is surveyed and the nations that are considered "less than free" are tallied in a column, very few-if any, are in that column due to foreign domination. Those nations are, in fact, held in subjugation, by their own military, security, and police forces. Remember lendringser's sig line: "When the government's boot is on your throat, whether it is a left boot or a right boot is of no consequence." – Gary Lloyd
Based on kannonfyre's outline of the situation in his country:
There is no such thing as a justifiable self defense situation.
by the extant legalities in force.
Seems as if it would be futile to be the good, upstanding citizen by US standards under those circumstances, now doesn't it?
No jury system. No Bill of Rights. No legal recognition of a right to self defense. No legal ownership of ANY weapon...even pepper spray, at least not for carry and self defense.
I pretty much agree with the advice given here...for use in the US.
I would imagine that most of it is useless in his situation. Somehow, I don't think his cops' motto is "To protect and serve,"...even in the abstract.
Sometimes, we don't realize just how fortunate we are in the US. When the history of the nations of the world over the past century is surveyed and the nations that are considered "less than free" are tallied in a column, very few-if any, are in that column due to foreign domination. Those nations are, in fact, held in subjugation, by their own military, security, and police forces. Remember lendringser's sig line: "When the government's boot is on your throat, whether it is a left boot or a right boot is of no consequence." – Gary Lloyd
Based on kannonfyre's outline of the situation in his country:
There is no such thing as a justifiable self defense situation.
by the extant legalities in force.
Seems as if it would be futile to be the good, upstanding citizen by US standards under those circumstances, now doesn't it?
Hawkeye755
Member
Byron you are correct. I realized the fact that in my zeal to address another posters question I drifted a bit off topic and have completely ignored the original post. Sorry.
kannonfyre, maybe you should look at spending your money on one of the numerous martial arts that are taught. Without knowing where you are located I don't know how available instructors are, but in your particular situation you may be better served by doing this. Akido is a good strictly self defence discipline that you may want to look into. Obviously you will have to base your decision on what is available to you. This way you always have a weapon available. You. Without formal education available you may try instructional videos. I do not have any experience with any of these, but without any better options you make do with what you can.
The situation as you describe it is a no win situation. I feel for your situation and wish you the best.
Sorry.kannonfyre, maybe you should look at spending your money on one of the numerous martial arts that are taught. Without knowing where you are located I don't know how available instructors are, but in your particular situation you may be better served by doing this. Akido is a good strictly self defence discipline that you may want to look into. Obviously you will have to base your decision on what is available to you. This way you always have a weapon available. You. Without formal education available you may try instructional videos. I do not have any experience with any of these, but without any better options you make do with what you can.
The situation as you describe it is a no win situation. I feel for your situation and wish you the best.
sonoranjack
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erick
I'm not going to be bullied by you just because your a moderator. all i did was post my point of view. then I was attacked by other membrers. Then I defended my poisition. If your a fair person which your not. You would not single me out. I stand by my poistion.
I'm not going to be bullied by you just because your a moderator. all i did was post my point of view. then I was attacked by other membrers. Then I defended my poisition. If your a fair person which your not. You would not single me out. I stand by my poistion.
sonoranjack
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I forgot 1 fact
I live in the state of AZ. Any/every private citizen who uses deadly force will be arrested for murder. The issue of self defense/justifable homicide is for a jury to decide. The job of the police is to gather evidence. Evidence of your guilt. It's the job of the states attorney to prove you committed murder not that you acted in self defense. Since after using deadly force the citizen will be arrested. It makes no sense to stick around to answer police questions. The best thing a citizen can do is to leave the crime scene. Get a lawyer. With a lawyer prepare a brief statement. The most important is to not answer questions. Any statement you make to the police will be used against you in court. Why give them anything? The criminal justice system is adversarial in nature. I didn't create the system. But if I'm going to be arrested for murder no matter what. I can risk saying the wrong thing during questoning or I can not give them the opportunity to question me. I'm going to get arrested no matter what. I would rahter have that arrest be made on my terms.
I live in the state of AZ. Any/every private citizen who uses deadly force will be arrested for murder. The issue of self defense/justifable homicide is for a jury to decide. The job of the police is to gather evidence. Evidence of your guilt. It's the job of the states attorney to prove you committed murder not that you acted in self defense. Since after using deadly force the citizen will be arrested. It makes no sense to stick around to answer police questions. The best thing a citizen can do is to leave the crime scene. Get a lawyer. With a lawyer prepare a brief statement. The most important is to not answer questions. Any statement you make to the police will be used against you in court. Why give them anything? The criminal justice system is adversarial in nature. I didn't create the system. But if I'm going to be arrested for murder no matter what. I can risk saying the wrong thing during questoning or I can not give them the opportunity to question me. I'm going to get arrested no matter what. I would rahter have that arrest be made on my terms.
sonoranjack
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powderman
Typical cop behavior. Confuse the issue. They only time the police have to give you the right to counsel is after they arrest you. The trick police use to interview you get the incriminating statements then arrest you. After your arrested they have no need to question you further since they got the incriminating statemnes before you were arrested. Even though you have rights. The police are not obligated to inform you of those rights before your arrested. 1 person being questioned. 5 cops as witnesses to that guestioning. The truth is what ever those 5 cops want it to be. So if the cop askes you the same question for a half hour & you refuse to answer. If after a half hour your tired of being asked that question & give an answer. That answer could be used against you in a court of law. The fact that you answered that question will go in the report. The part about being asked the same question for a half hour wont make the report. all the 5 cop witnesses will say is say he was asked the question & it was answered. So don't BS me I know what kind of tricks the police play.
Typical cop behavior. Confuse the issue. They only time the police have to give you the right to counsel is after they arrest you. The trick police use to interview you get the incriminating statements then arrest you. After your arrested they have no need to question you further since they got the incriminating statemnes before you were arrested. Even though you have rights. The police are not obligated to inform you of those rights before your arrested. 1 person being questioned. 5 cops as witnesses to that guestioning. The truth is what ever those 5 cops want it to be. So if the cop askes you the same question for a half hour & you refuse to answer. If after a half hour your tired of being asked that question & give an answer. That answer could be used against you in a court of law. The fact that you answered that question will go in the report. The part about being asked the same question for a half hour wont make the report. all the 5 cop witnesses will say is say he was asked the question & it was answered. So don't BS me I know what kind of tricks the police play.
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