Defense in a non-CCW State...

Status
Not open for further replies.

Low-Sci

Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2005
Messages
505
Location
Madison, Wisconsin
As most of you know, the Concealed Carry bill in Wisconsin was defeated.

So the questions is, without a firearm, what's your next alternative for carrying a weapon to defend yourself?

Its a theoretical question, so let me lay out the situation. First, the weapon isn't for home defense, its for your protection while you're out in public. Second, for the sake of arguement, we'll assume that if you decide to carry a gun anyway, since I live in liberal madison, if you shoot someone, you'll most definately go to jail.

So given those guidelines, what do you carry for your personal defense?
 
defense - go on the offense

Move out. Deny them your body and tax support. There are plenty of liveable places that are more in line with your mindset.

Stay hard- stay mobile.
 
Here in RI(a non ccw state) I brought a good pair of Nike running shoes. Thats about all the law allows you to do.
 
Ok, this isn't the legal and political forum here. I don't think Lo-Sci posted in Strategies and Tactics so people can tell him to pack up and leave his home.

Here in no CCW Illinois I always tell people who ask me what they can get to defend themselves to get some OC. The hottest they can buy. Because unlike me on my job, they don't have to handle the person they spray afterwords. They have the option of spraying and running.

Get some good hot OC, don't buy it by % of pepper, buy it by how many Scoville Heat Units it is rated at. Buy two cans, and practice with one. Learn how far it sprays, how wide the stream is. Get some on you so you can feel the effects, let it open up your sinuses. That way you won't be shocked if you get some on you when you are in an actual encounter. It can be tricky to use. The first operational use of OC after we were trained on it in my old department was by the guy we sent to OC instructor school. In the course of the fight he managed to spray himself when he first deployed it. It seems it was bit harder in a real fight then in class. We teased him unmercifully for months, but it can happen to anyone.

The other thing you can do is purchase a copy of The Principles of Personal Defense by Jeff Cooper. It's a short book, you can read it in an evening, but the lessons on mindset are applicable to both armed and unarmed defense. Proper mindset and situational awareness will win 99.99% of al fights by allowing you to avoid them. It will be what give you the edge in the ones you can't avoid.

Jeff
 
Last edited:
Alas, Nebraska is also a backward, non-2nd Amendmend recognizing state. Thus, whatever I carry, I'm extremely concerned that I don't let anyone know I'm carrying. Two or three seasons is relatively simple, when I'm wearing a jacket. But even in the heat of summer, my Keltec P32 is with me. Yeah, I wish it were a larger caliber, but it's what I can conceal effectively, and provides me with considerable peace of mind. Good luck!
 
I live in Maryland and ergo no ccw. However I do carry with me everyday

2 folding blade knives
26 inch Monadnock Autolock baton
1.9oz Can of ALS "Top Cop" OC
Surefire G2 w/P61 (the 120 lumen assembly)
Inova T3

In my laptop backpack that goes with me to and from work and is always in my car I carry a blowout kit, spare flashlight parts, and another knife.

I figure if it ever comes down to being a bad situation I'll do the best I can. All you can do is fight back as hard and as violently with what you got as you can.

The baton has already thumped more than a few people, and both the G2 and T3 are awesome at night for reseting the bad guys OODA loop. The OC oddly enough hasn't been used yet.


Something to seriously think about carring also would be a nice heavy wooden cane.


Chris
 
i'm sure you don't want to hear this, but you asked what we thought so here's the way i see it: i refuse to be unarmed. i WILL NOT live somewhere that does not recognize my basic human rights. if, hypothetically, i did live in such an oppressive nation i would simply ignore immoral laws and try not to get caught doing so.

ask yourself if you really care about your life, liberty and pursuit of hapiness. ask yourself why you really started this thread. is it because you are concerned about the safety of your loved ones and yourself? how important is that safety? or is it more important to just get some feedback telling you to carry some hot sauce or a stick against thugs armed with 9mms? if you just want to be comforted, sorry, i guess i'm not helping. but if you want liberty and security, no one can give it to you; you have to make it for yourself.
 
Low-Sci said "you decide to carry a gun anyway ......"
Well, according to Wisconsin statutes 941.23, that is a misdemeanor. I doubt jail time would result for a decent citizen with no priors.


Low-Sci said "if you shoot someone, you'll most definately go to jail."
What is the basis for this statement? Maybe jail for a night or two until your lawyer gets you out. But if it is a righteous shoot, I don't think felony time in jail will be the end result.
 
1.If you really feel you need to carry in WI, here are a few points to consider, as others above have posted.
Only YOU can make this decision, IANAL, and there are no guarantees. If you are caught with illegal CCW, you could get off Scot-free, or have the book thrown at you.

Wisconsin's (anti) CCW statute is "only" a misdemeanor penalty.

Many (but not all) of Wisconsin's DA's are loathe to touch CCW cases right now, for fear of sending more precedent cases to the Wisconsin Supreme Court.

The next ruling on the current Supreme Court case may well push WI into an "affirmative defense" state, where basically, if you're committing no crime, you can be arrested, but will likely get off in court if your carry was for a "lawful purpose".

Other alternatives:

OC Pepper spray is legal in WI. Fox Labs is an excellent brand. I recommend getting the inert practice canister along with the spray.

IIRC Wisconsin does not have a length limit listed in it's "knife law". I recommend keeping it visible with an external clip or belt pouch. "Switchblades" are illegal. However, a lockback knife that's not a "switchblade", but can be flicked open with a wrist-snap or arm-swing is illegal just like a switch blade. If you carry a folding knife that has an adjustable axis screw, keep it tight enough that it can't be flicked open.

Wisconsin - 941.24. Possession of switchblade knife. (1) Whoever manufactures, sells or offers to sell, transports, purchases, possesses or goes armed with any knife having a blade which opens by pressing a button, spring or other device in the handle or by gravity or by a thrust or movement is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor...

The Leatherman Surge has a rather large blade, and it can be accessed externally and opened one-handed with your thumb like any other lockback without unfolding the pliers. The fact that it's a multi-tool gives it a more "PC" factor if you encounter LEO's or bliss-ninny's.

Clubs and ASP/Monadnock collapsible batons are also illegal under WI 941.XX. However, if you're out walking the dog at night etc., an openly carried 4 or 6 cell Mag flashlight is not illegal. At least until you used it as a club, and then presumably actions were taken that you'd better be justified.

Other than the lack of CCW, WI is a pretty decent self-defense state. And barring massive failure at the polls this fall, I am confident we will get CCW eventually.
IIRC we do have self-defense lawsuit preemption. We are a "duty to retreat" state, but it's limited by the "reasonable person" modifier. Essentially, you've got a duty to retreat only if a "reasonable person" feels they can safely do so. If you feel you can't retreat safely, the duty to retreat evaporates. (IMO this is not too bothersome. All legality aside, fleeing, if practical, is what you should do from a tactical standpoint, even if you are in a "Castle Doctrine" or "Make My Day" state…)
So in WI, being surrounded, outnumbered, fear turning your back on your attacker, not have the time to flee, be cornered, or have children or other household members with you that you can't grab etc. would all qualify. And you don't have to wait to be in that situation, you can reasonably feel you were going to be forced into that situation too.
My take on the WI duty to retreat law is that it's there to snare the hothead who was in reality "spoiling for a fight" and had ample opportunity to leave, but claims self-defense. There's almost a million and one "reasonable" defenses that can be used. "I felt he'd catch me if I ran." "I had my children/dog/Mother-in-law with me." "My back door was locked." "He was between me and my car." etc. etc. etc. And that's if you actually went to trial, which would be rare. Even if some of our big city DA's are despicably soft on crime none seem interested in malicious prosecution of self-defense cases.

I would love it if we were a "Castle Doctrine" or "No duty to retreat/Make My Day" state, but what we have isn't too bad. Prosecutorialy, you (almost) never hear about people getting rail-roaded for self-defense in WI.
 
From Packing.Org

Wisconsin State Constitution Article I, Section 25

The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose.

From Packing.Org

Carrying without a Permit/License
Date updated: Dec 7, 2005 @ 3:59 pm

Open Carry is legal but you will attract the attention of every police officer in the area. As opposed to the southern states Open Carry is prohibited in cars but OK on the body! Here are the limits:

941.235 You cannot open carry in a government building.
941.237 You cannot open carry a LOADED FIREARM in a place that sells liquor.

167.31(2)(b) You can not open carry a loaded firearm in a car.

167.31(3)(a) In an airplane. The chamber must be empty and the magazine out or empty itself.

Wisconsin Statute 941.291 covers the possession and use of body armor.

Electric Weapons laws are found in Chapter 941.295.

From Packing.Org

Car/Gun law summary
Date updated: Jul 29, 2005 @ 1:04 am

Do not drive with an unloaded firearm on the car seat. This has been held to be concealed from ordinary observation. (State vs. Walls 1994) You must unload it and then either place it on the dash (now unconcealed) or store it out of reach.

Federal Law on the Transportation of Firearms. Title 18 U.S.C. Section 926A

I would start a grass-roots effort called "Open Carry Fridays". Get T-Shirts printed that have that printed on the back and the relevant WI statutes on the front. Get news coverage and as many people participating as possible. Pay strict adherance to the limitations listed in the law. Consult GOOD lawyers. Be prepared to deal calmly and respectfully to officers who may be called to the scene.

You have the right to Openly Carry. I'd say its about time you use it.
 
I hear people say "concealed is concealed" or the tired "better tried by..." as they advocate breaking the law to carry in a state that doesn't allow it. It sounds good to say you won't obey unjust laws, but reality sometimes bites you no matter how great your words sound. To each his own, but where I live I think thats foolish. You're more likely here to be pulled from your car after a wreck by an EMT and get a nice felony and jail time then you are to need a gun I believe. While its a pretty relaxed rural area, I wouldn't count on a wink and a nod from a concealed handgun being found even if you're a good guy. Perhaps Jeff has some stories that can confirm my suspicions.

Anyway, fox OC. http://www.comp-tac.com/ct_2oz_carrier.html Its a little big, but its not too annoying and I know I have plenty to go around if needed. The only draw back is you have to be sure to keep it pointing in the same direction for a consistent quick draw of it and its kind of odd to pull. A small gun-ish shaped OC dispenser would be really nice but obviously comes with problems :D I'd rather have a gun especially when I have to work in Cairo or Murphysboro, but for the time being its the only option.
 
How about a good heavy cane? i'd venture to say that it's better than and ASP and it's alrady in your hand...

~tmm
 
So given those guidelines, what do you carry for your personal defense?
Speaking from first-hand judicial acquittal experience, I have a simple plan for your nationwide CCW permit. Start out by pissing off a psychopath into publicly threatening your life. If a child-raping Chinese multimillionaire is unavailable, donning an appropriately decorated t-shirt should do the trick:
JP-011005-Muhammed-Westerga.jpg

Once you have an independently witnessed public record of a criminal threat, you can carry under common law in any jurisdiction, under the necessity defense.

As an aside, California P.C. 12025.5 (a) and 12031 (j)(2) waive the CCW permit requirement for anyone who "reasonably believes that he or she is in grave danger because of circumstances forming the basis of a current restraining order.'' Check your state law for similar statutory provisions.
 
Thanks everyone...

I was looking for more opinions, I'm glad I came to the right place.

Wisconsin is a very safe place to live, for that I'm very glad. But I'm a student, living in downtown madison, next to an apartment building that houses two registered sex offenders, and my girlfriend and my roommate's girlfriend spend a lot of time at our house. Naturally that makes me uneasy, as I feel that its my responsibility to be able to defend the people in my house, because they're in my care.

I wouldn't carry a concealed weapon against the law. Yes, the laws may be backwards and unfair; they may also be nonsensical. However, I feel its a responsibility to use the proper channels to protest those laws and not simply ignore them.

I very much appreciate the reccommendations for OC, the advice on knives, and prior to looking at packing.org I had exactly no idea that wisconsin was an open carry state. I was looking for a deterrent for protection, and I think I"ve found it.

Thanks everyone for your input, I really do appreciate it.
 
I was going to say it is important to know the laws for knives and so on. Here in CA, carrying the wrong knife can have some real problems. And canes are legal about everywhere. Just get a stout one with a crook in it (pun enjoyed).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top