CCW affecting normal self-defense?

[Igloodude]

Great question.

If OC doesn't slow the guy down (and he's still truly able to block your escape), and I am an out-of-shape not-experienced-or-competent fighter of roughly the same size and shape as him, we're back to square one.

I think just charging him with a mind to clip him or knock him down as best you can and keep going might be the best post-OC option, as it doesn't take nearly as much physical skill as trying to go toe-to-toe. Throwing the empty OC can away to distract him briefly just before you charge might help, too.

 

[tellner]

MedGrl writes:

Pepper spray is your friend...i think almost all gunshops carry it. In a self defense situation I see it more as a spectrum much like this

Do nothing....talk...........peper spray.................draw your gun............shoot

That's the sort of thing that makes me nervous, tool-dependent self defense. I'm not knocking tools. Quite the contrary. I don't eat with my fingers and would prefer not to fight with them. But if you take a close look at your options there's a hidden assumption that you can always keep the bad guy far away and that your only option for using force is to rely on an inanimate object.

I'd like to challenge that.

First, as I said, the research has been done on OC. It just plain does not work against goal-oriented, motivated or very violent attackers. If it's your last option before you use deadly force there's a serious gap in your self defense tactics. I would be glad to repeat an experiment I've done before. I get a chalked rubber knife. Anyone here gets whatever kind of OC they want. Spray me with it in whatever officially-sanctioned pattern you choose (other than the one that does work - shove the canister all the way into my mouth and dump the whole thing). I get $5 a cut, $10 a stab, no more than $2000 for whatever I can land on your body. It's a crime, literally, that this stuff gets peddled to people as an effective defense against violent criminals.

Second, not everyone needs to be Bruce Lee. But there is a great deal of value in being able to rely on yourself first and foremost. With that you can use whatever tool you want; all it does is increase your effectiveness. Without it you are dependent on the tool. If the tool doesn't work like magic you are in real trouble.

geekWithA.45, you are more confident of your Aikido than I am of most practitioners'. Unless you have some really outrageous skills or already knew how to fight before you took it up I put it to you that the scenario you posit here:

No strikes need be thrown. A sidestep, a nudge, and perhaps a hand technique, and the belligerent is on the ground behind you, as you hightail it out the door.

Another way of looking at it is that your objective is to disengage and leave before lethal force becomes necessary.

Trading blows is not the best way to achieve that goal.

is a bit unrealistically rosy. The goal is to get home alive at the end of the day with most of the blood still on the inside. Everything else is just a means to that end. And sometimes that means dealing with attackers who aren't completely incompetent pushovers. Empty hand tactics may include avoidance, offbalancing and throwing. There are plenty of times when that is inappropriate as in "That will get you killed dead." I've known some excellent Aikidoka. The ones who've had to make it work for real seem to agree that you have to be ridiculously better than the other guy or be prepared to switch tactics if the situation turns wahoonie-shaped.

Not to get into too many war stories here, but some years back when I was a little more physically confrontational I was teaching a one-week workshop in Eskrima. All the people doing martial arts or self defense got together to share beforehand. One presenter, a Shodan from the Ki Society, got in my face in that wonderfully passive-aggressive way saying "Of course, that won't work against Koichi Tohei's Aikido. By attacking with the knife you are unbalanced and have already lost." I'm not sure exactly what I said next or his response, but there we were, him in his hakama, me with a wooden knife. About three or four seconds later he was backed up against the wall with one of my hands around his neck and the other pumping the knife into his gut. He uttered The Words. "You can't do that. That's not fair! to which my wife replied "Of course it's not fair you idiot. It's a knife fight!"

The goal in an attack is survival for you and the innocents. Losing sight of that in deference to a philosophical ideal about what the world should be like is dangerous.

 

[MedGrl]

Tellner,

I am not saying to be tool dependant at all. I am actualy an assitant self defense instructor and have used "hand-to-hand" techniques before in bad situations. The continuum I put in my previouse post is merley showing when those tools if available can come into play. THat is a personal descision and I highly discourage relying on tools because if the tool is innefective/not available/taken away you still need some form of defense. My most recent brush with using self defense moves was over my spring break from University when my younger brother thought it would be amusing to pull an airsoft on me with the orange cap removed. I didn't have he option of using peperpray/running away/whatever I reacted using a dissarming move that i teach in the women's self defense classes.

to keep the tread on track...OC/Pepper spray/your CCW/a baseball bat... those are all just tools to aid in self defense. Your stronges and most reliable weapon/self defense tool is your mind.

 

[Geno]

Season and Serve!

Well, for me, with about 26 years of being a certified TKD instructor, I say season the punk with pepper spray, pop his body into submission, and cuff him. Then, wait for the police. After they arrive, collect my shiny cuffs off of his contorting body. Better yet, just use a disposable pair and let the rat-B keep them.

But, you didn't ask the ethics question--after you season and cuff the rat-B, do you clean his face with the proper solution OR, do you just let the piece of fecal matter burn away?

Doc2005

 

[BullfrogKen]

I find tellner's approach and conflict resolution decisions spot on.

 

[tellner]

My apologies for misreading, MedGrl.

 

[MedGrl]

No worries Tellner. I get fristrated with people who advocate tools only reliance as well. THe thread was asking about tool usage though. No worries.

 

[MedGrl]

sorry about the doubble post.

 

[R.H. Lee]

You do what you have to do at the time and deal with the consequences later. If you're making self defense decisions based on some future speculative unknowns, you've got your priorities backwards.

 

[buck00]

At risk of offending some people, I'll say this: There are people who have (for better or worse) been in a lot of fights and there are also people who have never been in fights and really have no idea what it feels like to be in serious physical combat with someone else.


My brother in law is fanatical about CCW and guns. However, he has zero street smarts and has never been in a fight in his life. I once asked him what he would do if a verbal conflict broke out with his 25 yr old neighbor over something, and the neighbor ran at him and tried to tackle him. He responded "Oh I'd shoot him." And I cringed, because it reflected his "black and white" view of the world- you are either a non-threat or a threat that needs to be shot. * I thought back to all the times people had rushed me, tried to tackle me or swung on me... and I realize if back then (before I had a CCW) if I ever had shot one of these foes, I'd be facing serious prison time. Not only that, in hind sight, every one of these physical conflicts was resolved within reason- either the foe or me getting hurt, but no one dying!


I can already hear counter arguments to this- if someone is trying to tackle you, better to shoot them just to be safe. I understand that thought process, but I really think you need to read the situation. Scenario 1: You are walking in a dark parking lot at 1 AM and a thug rushes you- yes, you should draw on him. Scenario 2: Next door neighbor or guy at a party rushes you, clearly coming after you, (no time to retreat), I'm not sure you should blast him. I know everyone here is of different physical sizes, physical fitness and skill levels, but you might be better off grappling. I think this is a good idea especially if you have friends or anyone else at the party or the location who can call the cops, pull this guy off you, etc.

On one end, you can argue "if you beat this guy up, you might get charged"- true. On the other end, if you shoot this guy and kill him or paralyze him for life, just because he had too many beers and was trying to deck you, you might have issues in court. Obviously you have to read the situation.

 

[Cosmoline]

If you can "take" the guy in physical combat, you should also be able to AVOID physical combat.

Hand-to-hand, fist vs. fist physical combat is a lose-lose situation and a fool's game. It's even more idiotic if you happen to be packing heat. Give yourself the tools you need to avoid hand-to-hand combat and to maintain that absolutely VITAL distance between you and your foe. That could be as simple as a walking stick with a solid brass head, or it could be a mean dog on a leash. As soon as you start to grapple and pull hair, you're going to end up on the ground and that's about the worst place to be.

REACH THROW ROW GO

If someone rushes after you screaming they're going to kill you, kill them first. Maybe they don't have a knife on them, but if they are rushing towards a main pointing a handgun at them it's a safe bet they do. If not, they probably should have grabbed one before they decided to run screaming at an armed man. Once you're on the ground, the game is over and it's too late. You're putting your life in their hands.

But of course 90% of the time you can avoid these situations by following some common-sense rules:

NEVER GO TO BARS
AVOID GROUPS OF TEENS
AVOID MAKING EYE CONTACT WITH STRANGERS, BUT WATCH THEM
AVOID TURNING YOUR BACK ON STRANGERS
KEEP DEFENSIVE TOOLS FOR LESS-THAN-LETHAL FORCE ON YOUR PERSON
AVOID TELLING STRANGERS YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS
NEVER GIVE MONEY TO BUMS
NEVER GIVE MONEY TO STRANGERS
NEVER TALK TO BUMS
NEVER RESPOND TO RANDOM STRANGERS TRYING TO TALK TO YOU
NEVER YELL BACK IF SOMEONE DRIVES BY INSULTING YOU
TRUST THE LITTLE VOICE IN YOUR HEAD
BE A COWARD WHENEVER POSSIBLE AND AVOID FIGHTS
BE VERY CAREFUL BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO BREAK UP A FIGHT OR INTERVENE IN A DOMESTIC CONFLICT, AND GENERALLY DON'T DO IT UNLESS SOMEONE IS ABOUT TO BE KILLED.
DO NOT TRY TO HELP OUT THOSE IN NEED BY YOURSELF
TRY TO KEEP GOOD RELATIONS WITH LOCAL LEOS
BE COLD-HEARTED WHEN YOU'RE ON THE STREET
KEEP GOOD RELATIONS WITH YOUR NEIGHBORS AND/OR YOUR LANDLORD
HAVE A PLAN OF ESCAPE IF THE SHTF
ALWAYS KEEP AN EYE OUT FOR POTENTIAL CONCEALMENT AND COVER
BE WARY OF SLOW-MOVING AUTOS, AND NEVER APPROACH THE WINDOW OF ONE IF THEY BECKON YOU
NEVER LINGER IN YOUR CAR'S DRIVER SEAT. IT'S A DEATH TRAP. GET IN AND GET MOVING OR GET OUT.
ASSUME ALL STRANGERS ARE A POTENTIAL THREAT
LIMIT YOUR CIRCLE OF FRIENDS, AND FURTHER LIMIT THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WITH ACCESS TO YOUR PRIVATE SPACES.
TRUST NO ONE BUT THE LORD AND YOUR SIDEARM


These little rules have helped me keep my scalp in some of the roughest parts of the wild north, from here in Spenard to The Butte and out in the deep woods of the Susitna.

 

[gunsmith]

I used to be able to fight

I had an ACL almost two years ago and would be quite afraid of a physical confrontation.
in the situation described blocking the exit I would try to verbally de escalate.
If unsucessful I would try for a shin kick as I almost allways wear steel toe, then pepper spray (don't like using indoor in enclosed small areas) then knife then gun.

I won't let myself be crippled by a dumb drunk that want's a fight.

If I'm absolutly sure I can knock him down I may go for the fight...maybe...I've been in fights before where I though I would win and didn't

 

[mr_dove]

There have been some wise comments here.

We have no way of knowing what an attackers intention might be when he comes at us. I think that anyone who CCW's has an enhanced duty to difuse the situation any non-violet way possible. You'll probably need to show that you took non-lethal action *first* if you end up having to use deadly force later (this varies from state to state but its always helpful in court).

I think that I can safely say that it is too dangerous to get in a physical confrontation while you are CCWing. Not because your attacker might give you a beating but because the chances of the bad guy disarming you is just too high. Assuming that you intend to take him down mano-a-mano the chances are still high that your CCW will be either revealed or knocked on to the ground in the event of a ground struggle.

It comes down to the fact that your opponent has too much of a chance to get their hands on a firearm.

I wish i could cite a case but I have heard of cases where the CCW shooter was able to defend themselves in court by arguing that their attacker would have taken their weapon and used it on them, thus making them a deadly attacker. That would certainly make an interesting legal area to study.