.38 vs .357- Law Enforcement Edition

Which was the best Law Enforcement cartridge?

  • .38 Special

    Votes: 29 27.9%
  • .357 Magnum

    Votes: 75 72.1%

  • Total voters
    104
  • Poll closed .
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Panzerschwein

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We all know the days of the .38 special and .357 magnum service revolver are long over. But when revolvers were carried by cops, they mostly were either of these two calibers. Some of the top loads were classics like the 158 grain LSWCHP in .38 special +P (the FBI load) and the 125 grain SJHP in .357 magnum.

This is asking about the use in full-size service revolvers with a 4-6" barrel, NOT snub nosed guns.

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For the purposes of Law Enforcement use, highway patrol, street cops, etc. which do you think was the best cartridge for the boys in blue? I'd love to hear from those who used to carry revolvers on duty as well.

Thanks all!
 
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Depends.

For the city detective carrying a Colt or S&W snub nose, the .38 Special was the only choice back then.

For Highway Patrol and County Mounties, the .357 was king.

Unless like some of them I knew, who carried a .44 Special or .44 Mag.

They were often called on to put down road injured cattle.
And if push came to shove in the middle of nowhere with no backup, and a car between you and the guy shooting at you??

The magnum guns were a good thing to have.

I happen to have a KHP issued S&W 4" Model 66.

Another KHP officer I know carried the same Model 66 357, a Marlin 1894P .44 Mag carbine in the trunk.

rc
 
I was never a cop or trooper but my father was an auxiliary sheriff's deputy for kendall County North of San Antone, and he carried a model 58 Smith in .41 mag, now back in the day it was much more underdeveloped with a lot of deer so it was a perfect round for either critter or criminal needs.
 
Depends.

For the city detective carrying a Colt or S&W snub nose, the .38 Special was the only choice back then.

For Highway Patrol and County Mounties, the .357 was king.

Unless like some of them I knew, who carried a .44 Special or .44 Mag.

They were often called on to put down road injured cattle.
And if push came to shove in the middle of nowhere with no backup, and a car between you and the guy shooting at you??

The magnum guns were a good thing to have.

I happen to have a KHP issued S&W 4" Model 66.

Another KHP officer I know carried the same Model 66 357, a Marlin 1894P .44 Mag carbine in the trunk.

rc
What about the 3.5 inch 27 or snub k frames?
Wasn't the trooper and python also have snub variants?
 
Going back many years we bought our own revolvers. We could carry any quality gun we wanted. That is to say a Colt or S&W. The first three rounds had to be .38 special. The next three could be .357 if you wanted. Everyone had a Python or Smith loaded with three of one and three of the other.
 
We all know the days of the .38 special and .357 magnum service revolver are long over. But when revolvers were carried by cops, they mostly were either of these two calibers. Some of the top loads were classics like the 158 grain LSWCHP in .38 special +P (the FBI load) and the 125 grain SJHP in .357 magnum.

...
For the purposes of Law Enforcement use, highway patrol, street cops, etc. which do you think was the best cartridge for the boys in blue? I'd love to hear from those who used to carry revolvers on duty as well.

Thanks all!

It really depended on who was carrying which caliber and was able to accurately, controllably and effectively use it.

The .38 Spl, even when loaded with the popular +P and +P+ loads of the service revolver's later years, was a lot more congenial and controllable for the average cop. I knew a lot of cops who carried Magnum loads, but if their agency allowed it they qualified with standard pressure or +P .38 Spl ammunition. Why? They thought the recoil and muzzle blast was nasty, and they couldn't shoot very well with the hard kicking/torquing .357's.

Also, the perceived "power" of the .357 Magnum, and even the appellation "Magnum" in the caliber's name, was often a political black eye and a hard sell. The .38 S&W Special, on the other hand, had been around a long time and wasn't unsettling for most of the motoring public and the politicians. That being the case, some agencies quietly adopted +P or +P+ loads to put in their .38 Spl's.
 
First off I'll say .38 special and .357 mag are definitely not gone from LE; though they may be backup, off duty, or plain clothes guns theses days most places. We just a had junior officer come through the other day in our off duty carry class, shooting a brand new air weight and doing just fine. For the heck of it I just happened to be teaching the class with a 2" M19. Two weeks prior we had a sergeant come through with his J frame that was older then I am, and it was running along just fine.

Back in the day, I'd have to give the .357 magnum a nod for terminal effect. Pushing a bullet at almost rifle velocities pretty much guarantees it's going to expand. Penetration may occasionally be shallow as it expands too soon too fast, but it seemed as though most manufactures had it worked out fairly well after a while. The .38 Spl was handicapped by it's low velocity as it was difficult to make a bullet that would expand reliably and penetrate deep enough to do any good. Additionally police administrators then as now, didn't want to give the appearance of impropriety and the lead round nose was issued for far too long as the standard round. I don't think a less terminally effective service pistol round could have been designed then the LRN standard pressure .38 spl round. It simply gently pushes out of the way most things it encounters in the body, fails to expand or fragment, and in general doesn't tear anything. I've had a conversation with a gentleman while he walked to the ambulance with 5 through and through gunshot wounds from .38 Spl LRN bullets to the torso while I gathered suspect information and such. The victim survived, and it was probably less then a month before he was back on the same corner he was shot at with no apparent lasting impairment.

Where the .357 magnum ran into some issues historically was its velocity caused the bullet to basically explode when trying to penetrate cover if the round was designed to have large expansion consistently. On the other hand rounds that were marketed to pass work well through barriers (car bodies for instance, a common selling point to highway patrol type agencies), when they hit flesh they usually failed to expand and punched nice .357 caliber holes in the suspect. It was only moving into the early 80's the truly effective multipurpose .357 rounds started to appear for LE use. .38's terminal effect really didn't get a major boost until the same general time frame when the first "modern" hollow point designs started to be produced.

As far as practical accuracy goes, .38 had that battle won hands down. Not all cops are gun people, and they never have been. Firearms training on average in LE today is massively more effective then it was 20 years ago, and it's an order of magnitude (or two) beyond that it was in the 70's and 80's in most place. Even if recruits/cadets/rookies/etc. had some firearms experience (which is far less then the popular belief was about people back in the 40's-70's) before coming to the academy handguns were frequently not the arm they had experience with. A .38 in a service sized pistol is probably only rivaled by a .22lr revolver in ease of teaching a new shooter without developing bad habits. .357 magnum on the other hand would be one of the worst cartridges to try and teach a new shooter with (I'll put the .40 S&W right behind it, so of course what do we issue....?!). Most officers are lucky to do any shooting beyond their yearly qualification unless they fund it, so most officers historical don't shoot off duty. So in the split seconds they had to handle a life threatening situation, a .357 can (and tragically on occasion did) proved to be too much cartridge for the officer to get fast effective hits to save their lives or others.

Prior to first modern bullet designs it really was a toss up between the ability for the average officer to actually hit their target with ammunition that was lacking terminal effect to a noted degree, or shooting a round few could control that at would actually do some good if it hit the suspect. A lot of money and brain power was dedicated to try make the .38 Spl more lethal, and the .357 magnum more shootable.

Going back in history a little bit at my agency, when standardization hit sometime before WW2 as far as I can tell, we were issued M10's. We still have few that are from the 1930's in the armory (I just shot 2 of them this afternoon). After that there was a transition to the M19, and as soon as it was offered the M66. Prior to the full transition to the M19, Officers had the option of carrying their own revolver, of certain approved makes and calibers. For instance .44 special was authorized, .44 magnum wasn't. Both the M19 and M66 lasted for a good long time. When I was a rookie, and well into my years as a young patrol officer, a few old heads still carried them. At some point after that M66, the department went to the 686 for a few years (no clue why), and then transitioned to S&W 5946's. We've had auto's in some form or fashion as a personally purchased duty gun since probably the mid 90's or so (might have been a bit earlier). The last of the hold outs had to give up their revolvers in 2011.

As far as I know from talking to folks, the .357 magnum was authorized for duty carry as soon as the M19's were added to the inventory. I believe that during it's initial introduction, officers could still carry .38 Spl, but later on officers were required to carry magnums. Currently we authorize .38 spl or .357 magnum in backups, off duty, and plain clothes guns; it's the officers choice on what to load with. Prior to the complete transition to semi-auto's in 2011, only .357 magnum was authorized for uniformed duty carry.

Having done a lot of ballistic testing in my current position I've been lucky enough to see what modern rounds produced for the LE market will do. Modern .38 Spl +P rounds are basically 9mm's, they perform almost identically. I would have no issue using it on the street, and I think it's a better choice then .357 magnum in modern loadings out of a service sized handgun.

-Jenrick
 
For my first three years as a peace officer I carried a .357 on duty and a 38 special off. Never felt under gunned by either and during the firearms portion of the Academy old Pops (I was 50) had no trouble keeping up with the kids and their wonder 9's and 40's.
 
Cooldill said:
Some of the top loads were classics like the 158 grain LSWCHP in .38 special +P (the FBI load) and the 125 grain SJHP in .357 magnum.
Although it was named the FBI load, I know of no other departments who actually issued it. It was just too hard to shoot well and really beat up the S&W K-frames most departments used. In comparison, the "Treasury Load" (110 +P+ JHP) was much more popular, though realy not much more controllable or accurate.

When I started, they issued the S&W M-15 with 125gr +P JHP. It remained the issue ammo when we converted over to the M-13 and offered the option of the 125gr JHP .357 Mag load.

My personal carry was a 4" Colt Python loaded with Speer 140gr JHP .357 Mag. I found this loading very controllable and accurate. It also wasn't as harsh as the 125gr loading...on either the gun or the shooter.

Too bad they didn't have the Speer 135gr +P JHP .38Spl load back then
 
jenrick

Having done a lot of ballistic testing in my current position I've been lucky enough to see what modern rounds produced for the LE market will do. Modern .38 Spl +P rounds are basically 9mm's, they perform almost identically. I would have no issue using it on the street, and I think it's a better choice then .357 magnum in modern loadings out of a service sized handgun.


Good to know.

I've recently acquired a neat little J-frame, 5-shot, 3-inch Model 60-15... I've chosen Remington UMC .38 Special +P 125 gr SJHP as my defense load.

I bought this wheelgun to serve mainly as a plinker; to dispose of the mountain of .38 Special my .357 lever guns won't cycle (at least until some throating and/or mag portal chamfering is completed). It's a fun revolver to shoot!
 
Thanks guys. I changed my OP to mention that this is more between use in 4-6" full-size service revolvers, not snub nose backup guns.
 
During the 60s-70s-80s there were several cities here in Texas that issued the .41 Magnum as a duty weapon, either the 4 inch or 6 inch S&W Model 57 with adjustable sights or the 4 inch Model 58 with fixed sights. Abilene, Amarillo, and San Antonio come to mind although there were probably many more privately purchased and carried in smaller departments.

I love listening to stories from retired Texas Highway Patrolmen about the .357 Magnum. The consensus was it worked with no stopping power issues whatsoever.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
 
Going back many years we bought our own revolvers. We could carry any quality gun we wanted. That is to say a Colt or S&W. The first three rounds had to be .38 special. The next three could be .357 if you wanted. Everyone had a Python or Smith loaded with three of one and three of the other.
Capt. Ct. -

Please expand on "The first three rounds had to be .38 special."
 
One of the reasons I quit the Highway Patrol and went back to ranching was they issued and required us to carry Model 66 revolvers. I felt undergunned.

I carried a Model 58 in .41 Magnum for 13 years, and needed the extra horsepower more than once.
 
When I did private security we were restricted to 38 Special +P ammo only. There were many nights when running the mobile patrol service I would have loved to have the option of the 357 Magnum ammo.
 
I think the Winchester silver tips did very well during the latter parts of the "wheel gun era"

It was a 145gr JHP @ ~1290FPS

Heavier and better penetrating than the Federal 357B, but not as bad about over penetrating as the heavier 158gr loads.

Susposed to be a little softer shooting and an early reduced (albeit not much) flash load to my understanding.

I've never shot any, but have a box just because I think they look neat and came to me in trade with a 627Pro, which I think would make a great service arm with 8 rounds on tap and the lighter slab 4" barrel.
 
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When I first started as a LEO,(1988) we carried .38s and the rounds were semi jacketed wad cutters,
I would take either of those over what we carried then

Dan
 
357-no question

When I started as an LEO in 1991, my agency had made a shift over to the .357 magnum a few years earlier.

Before that, they used the .38 Special +P+ Treasury load with mix success. They had been involved in a number of shootings which were textbook perfect with the bad guy going down after a solid hit and others were the round failed to stop.
Some of the officers were still carrying the +P+ loads when I started, although they had been replaced.

As a result, they went to the 110 grain jhp .357 magnum load with the option of either the 125 grain jhp or 145 grain Silvertip as long as the officer qualified. My first issue gun was a S&W model 13 with a 3 inch barrel and round butt grip. These were supposed to be originally ordered for the FBI, who dropped them after the MIAMI fiasco.
They were great carry guns as they weighed only 2 pound loaded, but could not safely use the hotter 125 grain loads which split the forcing cone. After that, they bought the RUGER GP100 with a 4 inch barrel for issue.

I found that the 110 grain jhp .357 magnum was not much worse in recoil than the 158 grain +P we used during transition training. If the gun had rubber grips, I saw it as a reasonable upgrade.

When my post got a load of the 125 grain jhp, we were warned not to use it unless you had a bigger gun than the model 13. I qualified with a model 681 with a 4 inch barrel (an L-frame gun) as well as the model 13. I was then given 4 boxes of .357 125 grain instead of the usual 1 box of .357 and 3 boxes of .38 Special training ammo to take home with me.
The firearms officers really wanted to get rid of the 125 grain ammo, so good for me!

I have not carried a revolver on duty for over 20 years, switching to a semi-auto as soon as I could. If, however, I was going to carry a revolver into a combat situation, it would be a .357 magnum if I had a choice.
I enjoy shooting revolvers as a range gun and shoot qualifications with the 125 grain +P jhp rounds, but a 110 grain .357 has it all over the .38 Special, even the +P+ load.

Jim
 
My opinion, worth no more than anyone else's but it's mine and I'll keep it.

The .38spl came along right in the era of crowded city streets, and the search for effective calibers for law enforcement at the beginning of the last century. It was clear the .32's weren't cutting it, despite being the most favored self defense round, and the .38's available weren't better, as the Army found out in the Philippines. The .38spl was S&W's fix for the lack of power.

The original .38spl spec called for a pressure limit of 21.7kpsi, well in excess of todays limit and even exceeding the +P limits. The Europeans still make ammo to that spec and proof their guns for it. (Which is why we know what the spec was, they never nerfed the caliber, maybe they have wimpy lawyers).

What the .38spl did that made it attractive, was it had pretty good power, but wasn't as likely to overpenetrate, not much of a concern today but in the 1910's streets were packed and it was a concern then.
 
For the most part short barrel revolvers are only used as a backup these days in law enforcement. I like a quality .38 Special round in my J frames and feel a .357 Magnum might be too much in close quarters.

It really depends on where you are doing your job.
 
We all know the days of the .38 special and .357 magnum service revolver are long over. But when revolvers were carried by cops, they mostly were either of these two calibers. Some of the top loads were classics like the 158 grain LSWCHP in .38 special +P (the FBI load) and the 125 grain SJHP in .357 magnum.

This is asking about the use in full-size service revolvers with a 4-6" barrel, NOT snub nosed guns.

maxresdefault.jpg

1369.jpg

For the purposes of Law Enforcement use, highway patrol, street cops, etc. which do you think was the best cartridge for the boys in blue? I'd love to hear from those who used to carry revolvers on duty as well.

Thanks all!
Hmm...

I think it depends on lots of variables, one or the other best in different situations. I'll only offer the editorial comment that I myself don't feel under gunned carrying an SP101 loaded with +P's. I've read of too many situations where they've (.38 special in general, not necessarily +P's) immediately made violent people stop what they're doing, right now, and never do it again.
 
We had a few instances of poor performance by .38 Spl. rounds. One involved a shootout in a hardware store. The officer fired several rounds, one shot was stopped by a coiled garden hose, the other hit the store's glass door, and slid off it, not penetrating.

In another instance, an officer doing a pat down was shot with a .22. He hit his assailant with 5 rounds, but sadly he died while the mutt lived. In both instances the rounds were 158g. +P semi jacketed hollow points.

I petitioned the agency to change to Glock 9mm's, which other local agencies already had done. They took their time, but we did eventually make that transition.

I am not a fan of the .38 Spl. round.
 
Back when I was a LEO (70's) I worked for a small department, and we furnished our own gun and leather. EVERYONE carried a revolver in .357, except maybe the Detectives. I carried a model 19 with a 4" barrel and I still have it. The department required .38 or .357. There was no standard load, and load preferences varied. The dept. required that you qualify with the loads you carried and I don't remember many problems with anyone qualifying.
 
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