Defensive ammo: max velocity or max accuracy?

[Dave R]

Here's a pistol handloading conundrum I am struggling with. I have fine loads for pistol plinking ammo. Very happy. But for defensive ammo...

The max loads are rarely the most accurate. The most accurate loads are generally milder, too. That's been my experience as I experiment. The max 9mm loads in my HP make bigger groups than milder loads. Recoil is noticeably snappier on the max loads, too (no surprise.)

So which do you do? Or would you do? Max loads for max power? Or go for placement, placement, placement with the milder, more accurate loads.

On the one hand, at defensive distances, the difference in group size will be minimal. You want the most power available to maximize stopping power.

OTOH, better placement, or a quicker follow-up shot, may be more effective than 200fps.

 

[Standing Wolf]

I'll take lots of raw horsepower and highly predictable accuracy, thanks all the same: I want the first shot to get the job done right this instant with no ifs, no ands, no buts. I believe there's no need to choose between power and accuracy, although it often takes awhile to develop the ideal load for a given gun.

 

[tbeb]

Why not just use factory ammunition for self defense? Choose one, and then come up with a reload that duplicates it, to practice with. In 9mm I think the best defensive loads are the 115 gr. JHP+P+, the 124 gr. JHP+P and 127 gr. JHP+P+. When my wife used a 9mm for a house gun, it was loaded with standard pressure Federal Classic Hi-Shok 115 gr. JHP. Why? She could control it, it was 100% reliable in her pistol, it was accurate, and I felt it would provide sufficient penetration and expansion in human tissue.

 

[Black Snowman]

If you feel your underpowered move to a bigger gun, for home defense I'd make it a long gun, rather than hotrod a gun you feel is inadiquate. Guns are designed to reliably function with a particular level of cartridge, if you feel you need more than that use a bigger gun. It's why they make them, so you can have more power with good control and reliability.

If you shoot max or max+ loads then you should be probably using a differant gun. You can put nitrous in a Metro and go fast, but not very reliably and not very controllably, or you can move up to a V8 Camero and get better performance with the appropriate control. Yes, its a bigger car but that's because it NEEDS to be.

Here's my current plan for my defensive handguns. I'm developing one load and using it for everything. I'll be loading for accuracy tward the high end of the power spectrum but with enough wiggle room that I can safely load progressively. For the actual defensive loads I'll load them on the single stage. The thinking behind this is I'll be putting a lot of trigger time in with my loads and I'll know they're reliable, I'll know the sights are correct, all my muscle memmory will match up, etc . . . which should all translate to better performance under stressful conditions.

I'm loading for 10mm and .40 S&W. For me it's going to be 135 gr Nosler JHP because they're decent bullets in the weight I want and can be had for reasonable prices in the 250 round bulk packs. The bullets are accurate and they're a hollowpoint which I prefer to a solid bullet in this weight primarily so there's more gripping area and less chance of bullet set-back with a near-max COL.

 

[HSMITH]

I pick BOTH, becuase there is no reason not to and nobody can tell me no. I like horsepower AND accuracy and have no trouble getting both.

 

[Kamicosmos]

I agree with HSMITH. Both. That said, in handguns, I generally go for the heavier bullets in the caliber's range for defensive purposes. But, that doesn't mean max velocities. Heavy bullets loaded 'warmly' and accurate in my gun. That's what I look for in any round. My goal is much like Black Snowman's: to have one load for each gun that is as multipurpose as possible for plinking, competition, and defense.

 

[Dave R]

Good point. In my 9mm pistol, the 115gr loads are more accurate at lower velocities, and less accurate at higher velocities. So I have been assuming accuracy and power are mutually exclusive.

But I have not tried 124 gr. or 147 gr. loads.

 

[444]

To answer your question, if I had to choose between the two I would take horsepower over accuracy.
I have never fired a load, either factory or a handload that was so inaccurate to make it a liability. To me, we are talking about shooting a two inch group or four. Three inches or six. Whatever, all plenty good enough for the purpose intended. I don't think pinpoint accuracy is nessessary for defense, and I also don't believe it will ever come in to play in a defensive situation. If you have the time and opportunity to uzilize all the potential accuracy out of your handgun and load in a defensive situation, you are in a truely unique position.
On the other hand, handguns are marginal for self defense use. Working as a paramedic for the last 20 years has caused me to have little faith in handguns vs. humans, no matter the caliber, bullet, whatever. I would load or carry the most potent ammo possible, no matter the caliber. The idea that if I am shooting +P I should move up in caliber makes no sense, because if I moved up in caliber, I would shoot +P in that also.
If my life is on the line, I am not interested in getting by with something that is just barely good enough under ideal conditions. I want something that will decisively end the situation in my favor. If the guy disintegrates, that isn't too much.

 

[FireInTheHole]

I am learning to shoot the full-power loads accurately. (pie plates at 15-20yds... rapid fire)

Perfect shot placement under stress is a myth!

The stoic hero puts a round in each of the badguy's eyes at 25yds...

LOL! If you need to make a headshot, you're in some deep shlt.

Goal: Highest number of the largest, deepest holes possible through the center of mass.

 

[HSMITH]

Dave, have you tried Power Pistol and Super Field for your 9mm 115 grain loads? Those two for me have really been superb for accuracy. Power Pistol will really make them snort too. Universal makes the 9 shoot pretty flat (flat gun, not trajectory) IMO, with good velocity and accuracy some dang fine defensive loads look very possible. Longshot has been nicely accurate in all loads tried also.

 

[Mikul]

If you are using hollowpoints, you'll need to load to a velocity which will allow them to expand. That magic number will take some experimenting. For 9mm 124gr GoldDots, that magic number is around 1,150 fps. They'll expand below that, but not as violently, and if you go low enough, not as completely.

You need to decide what you want your ammo to do, and play with velocity and measure the results as best as you can.

As a general rule, the mass of the bullet provides the power, while velocity focuses it. By "focuses," I mean that it localizes the damage which can help prevent an object from recovering. This is an over-generalization since both mass and velocity depend on each other, but for tweaking an existing good load, they're good rules of thumb.

If you push velocity too much, you'll find there is little to be gained for the velocity and recoil you have to deal with. If you push bullet mass, you'll find lack of pentration and perhaps lack of expansion.

 

[WESHOOT2]

"FIRST, IT MUST GO BANG"

Max reliability.

 

[enfield]

Neither - reliability is most important.

 

[Dave R]

Reliability is a given. But the range of powder weight/volume shouldn't affect that, until you get to extremes. I don't go there.

Voting right now is 50/50. I love a good controversy.

Lotta good input here, but I'm still undecided.

I'm just probably over-thinking this. The velocity range I'm getting is 1150fps on the low end, and under 1300 on the high end. The bullet is a Speer Gold Dot. Should expand reliably even at 1150fps.

Groups range from 3" @ 25 yards with the slower load, to 5-6" at 25 yards with the faster load. The difference in recoil is noticeable, especially in the little P-11.

I really like shooting the softer load, and I love the 3" groups. But could another 150fps make that much difference? How much energy difference are we talking about here?

 

[HSMITH]

1150 makes about 340lb/ft.
1300 makes about 430lb/ft.

Assuming 115 grain bullets, you didn't say. Call the bullet maker and see at what speed that bullet is DESIGNED to perform best at. My guess is the 1150 is about right but 1300 is not out of the top end of the range for a Gold Dot.

Given the choice? I would take 1150, 6" at 25 yards gets a gun sold down the river at my house........

 

[popbang]

I voted accuracy over velocity for the following reason. If a load gives you a 2 inch group when practicing and the other gives 5 inches. When under stress these groups may/will increase dramatically. So, in my view a 2 inch group that is tripled or quadrupled is still better than a 5 inch group that is only doubled. Accuracy wins because it hits.

 

[Dave R]

Thanks for the energy numbers, Hsmith.

Yes, 115gr. Speer Gold Dot is what I'm loading. 90 ft. lbs. of energy difference? Hmmmm.

I know what you mean about 6" groups. That was the P-11 with a short barrel and sight radius, at 25 yards. The Hi-Power did some 1.5" groups at 15 yards with the 1150 load. Did not shoot it at 25 yards. That's probably as good as I can hold/see.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Reliability is the primary consideration.

Very high second is adequate penetration.

If you don't have a bullet that make it into the vital organs and body structures, you don't have much of anything.

Everything after that doesn't really matter as far as I'm concerned.

A gun that shoots your chosen load into a 4" circle at 25 yards is still WELL within "Minute of Chest."

Chances are that any defensive shooting you're in is going to be a LOT closer, where accuracy is more a factor of where the muzzle is contacting your attacker's body when you pull the trigger.

 

[Mikul]

I used to use the 115gr GoldDots from ProLoad. I never chronoed them, but ProLoad claims that they do 1,300 fps from a 4" barrel. I did not like how early the 115gr bullet would expand. This limits penetration.

I would not worry about the GoldDot expanding at 1,150. You could change to 124gr GoldDots which will allow you to reduce velocity without sacrificing anything, but I'll bet that the 124gr load will increase recoil. I have not personally testing the 147 grain bullets, but a trusted friend claims that they don't expand.

Check your crimp on these loads. If you over-crimp, you can damage the bullet on firing which will send your accuracy to hell, especially at distance. I would not be surprised if they were keyholing at 15 yards or so. The crimp should be just enough to hold the bullet. I check my crimp by pulling the bullet. If there is visible deformity on the wall of the bullet, the crimp is too high.

I wonder what the twist rate on the P-11 is. It may just not like 115gr bullets.

 

[Dave R]

No keyholing, Mikul. Nice round holes in the paper. But good advice on the crimp. I adjusted it between my first two batches and may be over-crimping. Something else to try...

No idea what the twist on the P-11 is. I think its accuracy may be due to my eyes and the sight radius rather than the load. OTOH, I have been known to shoot the P-11 at 100 yards. Anything bigger then 2ft. I can hit at that distance. 'Course, that's 24 MOA.

 

[cratz2]

I'd like to be able to get two shots off as quick as humanly possible.

I can honestly say that I don't really think that it matters much to me personally whether the gun/ammo combo is capable of 2" groups rather than 5" groups at 25 yards. A comfortable carry combo that can hold 5" groups at 25 yards and has an expected one shot stopping percentage of over 85%, I'm happy with it.

I don't shoot reloaded defensive ammo but if I reloaded for it and I could get a 124 Gr Gold Dot coming out the barrel of my Kahr at close to 1,100 fps and they grouped under 5" at 25 yards, I'd be happy.

 

[FireInTheHole]

5" from a rest? Seems that a little gun like that would be very hard to shoot sub 5" free hand....

 

[ThreadKiller]

I've read many times in many places that reloading "defensive" loads is a bad way to go. You're literally giving the opposing attorney more ammo to beat you up with should you end up in court.

It's almost guaranteed that you'll be crucified for intentionally constructing exceptionally lethal ammunition.

Hard to improve on factory stuff nowadays anyway.

As they say, just my .02.

Tim

 

[tc300mag1]

Load for accuracy/milder recoil. Placement or a quick follow-up is more important than 200fps. worried more about that second shot than did i get it going at warp speed. Plus we were told not to relaod here as most cases turn into a you loaded it to specificaly kill someone adn also it turns into a JFK wonder bullet

 

[WESHOOT2]

'HANDLOADS'

I load for maximum accuracy; it gives me great confidence.
(It will be powerful enough.)

Know what I mean?