Defensive Ammo: Roll your own, or factory?

[OneSevenDeuce]

My long time SOP has been to reload my own range ammo and rely on factory defensive ammo for concealed carry and nightstand guns. I have heard reports of liability issues with reloaded defensive ammo (re: Massad Ayoob), and besides that I always figured factory ammo was rigorously loaded and controlled. Recently I have heard about ammo recalls that have made me question that assumption. Yes, I know ammo problems are exceedingly rare from most reputable factories. However, I have recently come into some Hornady XTP hollow points and this, along with questions about ammo reliability have made me reconsider reloading my own defensive ammo. What say the rest of you? Any opinions on reloading defensive ammo one way or another?

 

[MILLERTIME]

Factory until they're gone and then it's reloads till the threat is over.

 

[Mad Chemist]

Similar to Millertime, I have factory ammo for primary mags and reloads as back up.

 

[mdi]

FWIW; I have never read of an actual case where a prosecuter had "gone after" a self defense shooter for using his handloaded "killer" ammo. Lots of speculation, but not any recorded cases of someone being tried for using handloads. I've read a lot of Mr. Ayoob's writings and he has testified as an expert witness in many trials dealing with shootings, but I can't remember handloads being the deciding factor...

I use handloads in all my guns for every application (target, hunting and SD).

 

[OneSevenDeuce]

What is the reasoning behind that? Cost savings? I have factory ammo in my backup mags.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

My handloads... Why?...because I can.

 

[OneSevenDeuce]

mdi,

I seem to remember an article by Ayoob warning against reloaded defensive ammo. I could be mistaken, and I'm not saying he is necessarily right, but that kinda made me shy away from loading my own ammo for real world uses.

 

[Sam1911]

THE DEFINITIVE THREAD on this question, probably the most in-depth discussion of the subject available on any public forum, is right here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=724791

 

[OneSevenDeuce]

ColtPython, I'm moving to that direction as well. But I'd have to come up with a metric for testing how effective they are, and I don't know what I'd do for that.

 

[OneSevenDeuce]

Thanks Sam1911.

 

[Sam1911]

No problem!

Of note: The actual concern regarding how this affects self-defense cases is NOT what most people toss around -- an "over-zealous prosecutor" painting the defender as a nut for using super-lethal reloads. That seems pretty clearly to be a hollow boogeyman.

The real question with some meat to it is whether the DEFENDANT's experts could use gun shot residue (GSR) collected from his reloads to help him prove specific things about the events of the shooting. Some hold that any data collected from your reloads would not be admissible as evidence so you might not be able to prove that you were here, not there, when you shot (and so forth). So you should only use factory ammo to ensure that such data could be provided if needed. Others hold that such evidence IS collected and used in court even with reloads, so the matter is moot.

(Others say, woah, that comes up how often? Like one in a 100 or one in a 1,000 of those self-defense cases that actually make it to trial? Why worry about such a rare thing?)

Read the thread and make up your own mind.

 

[OneSevenDeuce]

Wilco. Definitely some interesting comments.

 

[buck460XVR]

Been many a year since any of my handguns saw any factory ammo. The argument about "legal" ramifications of using handloaded ammo for SD/HD is and always has been conjecture, coming down to what folks think could possibly happen in a worst case scenario. To me the worst case scenario is to be killed or have someone close to me killed because I used ammo inferior to what I can make myself. Ever notice how so many of those so-called experts that preach using factory ammo are sponsored by ammo companies......?

 

[OneSevenDeuce]

buck,

I hear you on that one. A handful of gun pundits have taken a big hit with me personally in terms of credibility.

 

[Sam1911]

One of the "gun pundits" who's been routinely quoted on this topic is Mas Ayoob (who's also a member here at THR). The case that informs his opinion, and his comments on that case, are discussed at great lendth in that thread.

 

[OneSevenDeuce]

That's good, because I was unclear to a certain extent as to what the specifics of his opinion were. As mentioned I thought that he advised against it due to possible legal liability, but a clarification is always welcome.

 

[Sam1911]

You'll want to look at the case of Daniel Bias in NJ. I'd again suggest that you read the thread carefully. It is long and very detailed. Sorry, but it needs to be, the details are important.

Here are the basics of the case, as presented in a news article: http://articles.mcall.com/1992-07-18/news/2876380_1_jury-foreman-verdict-manslaughter

Daniel Bias claimed that his wife shot herself. The prosecution claimed he shot her. GSR evidence was used, but did not support his claims.

 

[OneSevenDeuce]

I think I read about that case as written by M. Ayoob. I will review it again.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I am not going to address the legal aspects of carrying reloads because it's always a very hot and contested topic.

I will however address this part of the OP:

I always figured factory ammo was rigorously loaded and controlled.

My reloads are always more reliable than any factory ammo. I load each one by hand, not and automated machine that no one is looking at. I use quality components and take very good care in the assembly. I trust my ammo 10 times over any factory ammo!

I have never ever had one of my reloads fail to fire, can you say the same about factory ammo? (if you can you have been lucky)

 

[Jesse Heywood]

Read the thread and make up your own mind.

Words of wisdom from our highly-esteemed moderator. Just don't let it go to your head!

I followed the writings of Mas from when he was a PO. He is highly respected by many. Until the shortage of 2008 I followed his logic and only carried factory ammo for self-defense.

During that shortage my hand was forced. If I wanted to practice with carry ammo I was out of luck, there wasn't any available. I started rolling my own for carry, the two calibers I needed the most were .380 acp and .45 Colt. For the 380 I was able to obtain some JHPs, but I couldn't locate jacket bullets for the 45. That is where I took a big leap and went with a lead Keith style bullet.

My logic was based on probability. What were the odds of an attorney coming after me, an older guy, living on a fixed income, without a treasury of money?

Had I resided on the east coast north of the Mason-Dixon line or on the left coast my choice likely would have been different. Perhaps that explains why I live in tornado alley and the heart of the Bible belt. But we each have to make our own decision after examining the evidence.

 

[OneSevenDeuce]

I definitely agree with you there. I pay close attention when reloading, but nevertheless, my reloads are primarily for range practice or competition. If I were to reload for defense then I would probably load one at a time with a precise charge and OAL.

 

[NOMI WASP]

You are limited on the quality defensive reloads you can buy. I've never seen HST or Rangers availible for reloaders.

I always fire atleast 7-8 shots of any new box of defensive ammo to make sure it performs properly. The big ammo companies have the R & D to backup their load specs and I feel confident using most law enforcement loads.

Just my .02

 

[buck460XVR]

I think I read about that case as written by M. Ayoob. I will review it again.

That case has absolutely nuttin' to do with SD/HD and reloads. What it does has to do with is a husband who claimed his wife shot herself as opposed to the DA claiming he murdered her. The reason the GSR was not admissible is because the husband also claimed that the reloads in the gun were taken from a box that contained reloaded cartridges with varying powder charges, and since there was no way to prove what powder charge was in the case that killed the wife, there was no way to prove what exact distance the gun was from her head when the trigger was pulled. Ironically, in that trial,the lack of GSR evidence led to a hung jury and actually kept Bias from being convicted. He was later convicted when the DA changed the charge from murder to reckless manslaughter. That case was also 25 years ago, when the idea of a SD/HD shooting by a civilian was not anywhere near the connotation it is now. Nowadays, almost daily you read/hear of a SD/HD shoot, but never do you read/hear anything about the type of ammo used. Many claim one should not use a firearm for SD/HD that has had any trigger work or other customization done to it because that too would give a zealous DA fodder for making it a bad shoot.


One needs to use what they are most proficient with, confident with and feel the most comfortable with when it comes to the ammo and the platform they use for SD/HD. The primary purpose should be to keep yourself and your loved ones alive and safe. Odds are, what you say after the shoot to the police, will matter more than the ammo in the firearm.

 

[OneSevenDeuce]

I tend to run through defensive ammo fairly frequently. I am always watching things like bullet seating depth changes from repeated chambering and unloading of defensive weapons. Because of that I tend to shoot up my defensive ammo every 3-4 months at the range after I buy a fresh pack. It also doesn't hurt to reacquaint myself with the POI and recoil of my chosen ammo every so often.

 

[Sam1911]

The reason the GSR was not admissible

Buck, I think you should read that thread through carefully.

GSR data WAS used at trail. GSR from his reloads WAS tested. It just couldn't -- possibly -- prove what he was claiming.