Defensive Ammo: Roll your own, or factory?

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Whenever the issue of handloads/reloads comes up, almost invariably, issues related to other firearm modifications gets brought up. These are two (largely) unrelated issues. May none of us ever have to face a jury from the defendant's chair, but if any of us do, we won't be able to count on having 12 "gun people" sitting in the jury box. As Sam points out, member GEM has done pretty significant research on what effect weapon appearance has on juries. If I remember GEM's research correctly (& while I think I do, I will invite him to correct me), juries have either a negative reaction (or at least less of a positive reaction) to "evil looking weapons" like the AR, when compared to something blued-and-wood, even when the caliber is the same. (Think AR vs. Mini-14 Ranch Rifle). Another example might be comparing a basic, parkerized GI model 1911 to a 1911 with death's-head grips. The prosecutor (or plaintiff's attorney, in the civil case) may not need to say a thing about it. The jury will get to see the pistol and can draw its own conclusions. That's the same problem with ammo like "R.I.P. Ammo," from the makers of "D.R.T. . . . " Were I plaintiff's lawyer suing an alleged SD shooter, I could make some hay with a picture of that Extreme Shock ammo. I'd have a much harder time getting the jury riled up with something like Speer Gold Dots or Remington Golden Sabers.

That, however, is a distinctly different legal problem from handloads. The issue laid out above is one of jury perception. The handloads problem is an evidentiary one. If I'm ever in an SD shooting using handloads and subsequently charged or sued (God forbid), the jury may not ever get to hear the GSR expert that I would like to have testify on my behalf, because the basis for the expert's conclusions would have to be drawn from the defendant's (my) own reloading records.

Appellate cases. . . . The other aspect that seems to come up a lot in these discussions is the "show me the cases" argument. Mind you, given the Information Age in which we live, that's not an entirely unreasonble argument. However, IMNSHO, it partially rests on a flawed idea. Looking for a story reported on the internet is one thing, but if we're talking about finding reported cases that offer some guidance, it's important to understand a little bit about lawyers and the reporting system for cases. A large part of what we (lawyers) do is predictive in nature. Were I to get a case that is identical in every regards (save the parties' names) to a case already decided by SCOTUS, that case is a slam dunk, either for me or against me. That doesn't happen. The case presented to the lawyer will differ in some ways (some minor, some major) to the cases that are already out there. The lawyer's job is then to look at cases similar to "the one at bar" and then try to predict what will happen if the one on his desk goes to trial.

Now, when trying to make these predictions, we (again, lawyers) have to look at: (a) black-letter law (statutes, regulations, etc.); and (b) caselaw. The former is pretty self-explanatory. The latter, though, involves looking at the reported cases of precedential value. Not every case is prosecuted or tried. Of those, not ever case is appealed. Of those that are appealed, not every one results in a published decision. Of those that result in published opinions, not every one results in a discussion of the issues that I need discussed . . . .

With all of that said, if the only thing we need is an internet article on a case where ammo or handloads became an issue, googling Harold Fish or Daniel Bias ought to turn something up. OTOH, if what we're looking for is an appellate court decision that offers some guidance on whether the testimony of a GSR expert, working from the defendant's reloading records, is admissible in court, here's a brief outline of all the things that have to happen before we will be able to find it:
  1. There has to be a shooting;
  2. The shooter has to have used handloads or reloads in the shooting;
  3. The shooter must be prosecuted or sued civilly;
  4. There must be a difference of opinion on the distance at which the shooting occurred;
  5. That difference of opinion must be subject to resolution by GSR evidence;
  6. The defendant has to have a GSR expert to testify (the Crime Lab guys will be testifying on behalf of the State);
  7. The defendant's GSR expert has to use the defendant's own reloading records as a basis for his opinion;
  8. The State (or the plaintiff's lawyer) has to object to the admission of the expert's testimony;
  9. The decision of the court on the issue of the admissibility of the GSR expert's testimony has to be appealed (more often that not, this will mean that the evidence is excluded and the defendant appeals);
  10. The appellate court has to issue a ruling and an opinion on the issue of the admissibility of the GSR expert's testimony; and
  11. The appellate court has to publish the decision in some way that allows us to find and read it.

It is a very particular "constellation of events" that could lead to handloads presenting a problem, which means that the odds of handloads presenting a problem in any particular case are pretty slim. In order for them to present a problem, at least steps 1-5 (above) have to come into play. Nonetheless, if that problem does come into play, the stakes are very, very high.
 
Remember, this is a matter of selling an idea to a bunch of people who don't know anything about the subject matter. A prosecutor holding up your AR-15 with the Punisher skull painted on it can get under the skin of a jury and paint you in a negative light without saying a word.

Good point, and a very scary one at that. Makes me think twice about the "Zombie" killer loads from Hornady. Dont want to appear to have a predisposition for death or darkness.
 
That, however, is a distinctly different legal problem from handloads. The issue laid out above is one of jury perception. The handloads problem is an evidentiary one.
Exactly! That's why I tried to push the thread in that direction in post 11.

So many folks say, "handloads? An 'overzealous prosecutor' will send you to the chair for using super-deadly home-made killer ammo" when that's really not the concern in play at all.
 
Makes me think twice about the "Zombie" killer loads from Hornady. Dont want to appear to have a predisposition for death or darkness.

LOL! Nope, but on the other hand, maybe you don't want to be the strange middle-aged dude with all his guns painted with Hello Kitty either! :D

Moderation in all things, right? :D
 
True that! It does make me want to go through and check out all of my inventory, especially my ammo. Guess I'll move my super duper death star killer ammo to the front of the range use pile.
 
The defendant has to have a GSR expert to testify (the Crime Lab guys will be testifying on behalf of the State);

This is something I touched on previously, and would like to explore more. The Crime Lab guys are state employees, but to say that they're "on behalf of" the state (as in, the prosecution) I think could be overstating the case.

In perhaps an overly perfect world view :))) they really can only testify as to what is there. What they actually found. Not paint a certain picture for the prosecutor to try and make you look bad. In the Bias case, the problem was that their evidence -- collected from not only factory ammo but his reloads as well -- couldn't support the defendant's claim.

But we're hopefully on the side of the angels here, and WANT the evidence to come out. Unless we're exceedingly unlucky, or assume unethical conduct by the forensics folks, that evidence should support our side of the story.

So the real question here becomes one of the defense saying that the GSR will exonerate the defendant, and the state refusing to allow ANY GSR evidence to be presented.
 
Sam1911 said:
Spats McGee said:
The defendant has to have a GSR expert to testify (the Crime Lab guys will be testifying on behalf of the State);

This is something I touched on previously, and would like to explore more. The Crime Lab guys are state employees, but to say that they're "on behalf of" the state (as in, the prosecution) I think could be overstating the case.

In perhaps an overly perfect world view they really can only testify as to what is there. What they actually found. Not paint a certain picture for the prosecutor to try and make you look bad.
Yeah, I have to agree with you on that one. I overstated it.
 
Spats summarizes what I found correctly.

Just to emphasize some:

1. The DA doesn't have to make a rant - appearance alone was operative.

2. Other studies found that the more exposure to the gun was a negative for the defendant. Seeing the gun once, having it on the DA's table, handling the gun by the jury. The latter was bad news. That's why in the recent Detroit case of the teenager shot through the door - I thought that when the jury asked to see the pistol grip shotgun, the defendant was in serious trouble.

3. Gender interacts with gun attitudes and self-defense - women can be treated more harshly if their armed action seems to violate gender stereotypes. Appearance interacts also.

4. A well known police trainer did a study, inspired by a presentation I did, that found that police were more negative to folks if they had an EBR as compared to other guns in police stop where the officers had discretion.
 
Would love to see a single instance of that happening.

Thoughts such as this make me happy I live in IL. Here are a few excerpts from IL law:
(a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or another against such other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or another, or the commission of a forcible felony.

(b) In no case shall any act involving the use of force justified under this Section give rise to any claim or liability brought by or on behalf of any person acting within the definition of “aggressor” set forth in Section 7-4 of this Article, or the estate, spouse, or other family member of such a person, against the person or estate of the person using such justified force, unless the use of force involves willful or wanton misconduct.
Yes, I have seen cases here in KC of Law enforcement shootings that resulted in a huge verdict. Know drug dealer reaching for firearm, refusing to surrender or get out of car.

While A whole different deal, Look at the OJ trial....he was found NG in the criminal trial, but hammered at the civil trial. At criminal trial the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt, civil trial it a preponderance of the evidence....big difference. What kind of law do you practice?

Russellc

If you mean stuff coming in at sentencing, I', an attorney and that's how it works.
 
All of these comments are important to keep in mind. I currently still carry factory loads, but am hesitant about it..

When I first purchased the ammo and carried the ammo (Winchester PDX1 230gr), I had no real problems. Then one day I was stripping my sidearm down for a cleaning and after removing the ammo from the magazine, I noticed something wrong with the round that had been chambered from the magazine while carrying. The bullet looked short.. So I got my calipers out and started measuring. The other 20 rounds from the box measured in the range of 1.205" and 1.214. The round that had been chambered, once, measured 1.167".

As we know, bullet set back in pistols cause a pressure increase. A set back of .038" (based the shortest cartridge found in the box) is not something to wave a stick at. Maybe a bad round, maybe a weak case, who knows.. But either way, it doesn't give me much confidence in my own safety for the ammo that I had been carrying.
 
Sure there are factory mistakes - look at the current Hornady Critical Duty recall. However, shooting lots of competition, I do see hand loads go bad quite a few times.

Practicing clearance drills is a good thing.
 
Yes, I have seen cases here in KC of Law enforcement shootings that resulted in a huge verdict. Know drug dealer reaching for firearm, refusing to surrender or get out of car.



While A whole different deal, Look at the OJ trial....he was found NG in the criminal trial, but hammered at the civil trial. At criminal trial the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt, civil trial it a preponderance of the evidence....big difference. What kind of law do you practice?



Russellc



If you mean stuff coming in at sentencing, I', an attorney and that's how it works.


Read what I posted above. IL state law does not allow for civil liability in a self defense case.

I don't need to practice law. And I don't think snarkyness is needed.
 
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It isn't clearing drills that worry me.. It is the possibility of a pressure spike from a set back bullet!

I don't believe it something big to worry about, it was just a concern that came to mind.
 
Watch your own snarkyness....read your statute...it is conditional..."A person is justified in the use of force when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself".... "In no case shall any act involving the use of force justified under this Section" which leads to a lot of holes.... was it reasonable? was it justified? If not you screwed. Just because you fail to interpret the statute does not make my comment snarky....your statute is not absolute like you imply.....you were the one wrongly speaking in absolutes...

Russellc
 
Sure there are factory mistakes - look at the current Hornady Critical Duty recall. However, shooting lots of competition, I do see hand loads go bad quite a few times.



Practicing clearance drills is a good thing.


In all fairness though, there are usually multiple things that are in play there. First, those handloads are probably being made as cheap and quickly as possible. They aren't usually giving every round the attention it deserves. Also a lot of those guns have many modifications or are dirty as all get out.

I do agree though, hand loading self defense rounds isn't for everybody. When I make practice ammo it's on a progressive at 3-400 rounds per hour. When I load my SD ammo it's on a turret press. I weigh every charge and hand seat the primers. I also measure all cases to ensure I get even crimp on the revolver rounds. I set up a mic to use as a go no go fauge for OAL to make sure they are right. I also take the calipers and measure the case mouth on all of my taper crimped auto rounds. It takes me about an hour to load 50 rounds this way. I'm ok with that.
 
Watch your own snarkyness....read your statute...it is conditional..."A person is justified in the use of force when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself".... "In no case shall any act involving the use of force justified under this Section" which leads to a lot of holes.... was it reasonable? was it justified? If not you screwed. Just because you fail to interpret the statute does not make my comment snarky....your statute is not absolute like you imply.....you were the one wrongly speaking in absolutes...

Russellc


Whether or not it was justified isn't the discussion at hand. We are operating on the principle it was justified and there was an acquittal and then someone sued in civil court. Btw, nice how you added absolute. I never used the word nor spoke in absolutes. You are changing the values of the equation after we have started discussing it. This is based in a good shoot.

Edit: perhaps you could show me where I was snarky to you? If I was I will apologize because it wasn't intended. I do my best to adhere to the standards here
 
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I've seen a case out of Lee's Summit MO where a guy was in his basement working away and was alarmed by noises upstairs. Loaded a shotgun and went to investigate and caught a burglar, who had his major appliances lined up against the wall, cords neatly wound up and in process of moving items to his vehicle. The homeowner announced his presence whereupon the burglar ran to the door, home owner shot him in the back, he dropped dead in the front yard. No charges filed, but that was too close, many prosecutors would have. Now look at your Il statute.
A civil lawsuit would have made mincemeat out of his bank acount and possibly his home owners insurance. See what I mean now? I dont feel he was justified in shooting him, there was no reasonable belief he was in imminent fear of death or bodily harm, and likely not justified to defend this far...Statute would not have protected him.

Now lets change it up a bit...home invasion, perps are armed, tying people up, and this has been a serial thing where those tied up were usually killed. Lets further suppose you had every reason to know this was the same group of perps, you come up from basement with shotgun and shoot him as he levels a gun at someones head....now your statute would protect....probably anyway. It may still cost a tidy sum to defend against civil lawsuits even if you are not charged criminally.

Russellc
 
I've seen a case out of Lee's Summit MO where a guy was in his basement working away and was alarmed by noises upstairs. Loaded a shotgun and went to investigate and caught a burglar, who had his major appliances lined up against the wall, cords neatly wound up and in process of moving items to his vehicle. The homeowner announced his presence whereupon the burglar ran to the door, home owner shot him in the back, he dropped dead in the front yard. No charges filed, but that was too close, many prosecutors would have. Now look at your Il statute.
A civil lawsuit would have made mincemeat out of his bank acount and possibly his home owners insurance. See what I mean now? I dont feel he was justified in shooting him, there was no reasonable belief he was in imminent fear of death or bodily harm, and likely not justified to defend this far...Statute would not have protected him.

Now lets change it up a bit...home invasion, perps are armed, tying people up, and this has been a serial thing where those tied up were usually killed. Lets further suppose you had every reason to know this was the same group of perps, you come up from basement with shotgun and shoot him as he levels a gun at someones head....now your statute would protect....probably anyway. It may still cost a tidy sum to defend against civil lawsuits even if you are not charged criminally.

Russellc


I would have to say that it wasn't a good shoot in the first scenario so there would be no protection by the law. Again, I'm not trying to debate that you can screw up and get yourself in trouble. I'm saying that in a good shoot there is protection in IL.

We don't have a castle doctrine in IL and quite frankly don't care to have legislation passed on it. The NRA legal people have advised against trying to modify the way out law is written because it's actually pretty good. Though nothing is perfect.
 
Could still be Wrong. Your stute controls and only protects you as far as it does. If you are not justified, it doesnt hold water. Reasonably is and can be a problem too. Not necessarily what you thought was reasonable, its what the hypothetical reasonable man would have done. Your jury will be given a set of instructions as to determine this...it does not end in acquittal at the criminal trial. I would need to see the entire statute, not just a) and b) sections. Is this the criminal statue or one dealing with civil liability?

In the Lee's Summit case I mentioned, prosecutor just elected not to prosecute.... since there was no acquittal, where does that leave your statue on civil liability?

Russellc
 
Could still be Wrong. Your stute controls and only protects you as far as it does. If you are not justified, it doesnt hold water. Reasonably is and can be a problem too. Not necessarily what you thought was reasonable, its what the hypothetical reasonable man would have done. Your jury will be given a set of instructions as to determine this...it does not end in acquittal at the criminal trial. I would need to see the entire statute, not just a) and b) sections. Is this the criminal statue or one dealing with civil liability?

In the Lee's Summit case I mentioned, prosecutor just elected not to prosecute.... since there was no acquittal, where does that leave your statue on civil liability?

Russellc


I'm not sure what your point really is. Lots of things could happen. I could wake up with diarrhea tomorrow too.

You are trying to apply Illinois law to a Missouri case. You are free to look up the law in Illinois if you would like. I have a fairly good understanding of it. As part of the 16 hours of training I took for my CCL the instructors brother, a lawyer in IL who has studied such things in IL law spoke for an hour or so on IL law regarding self defense and civil liability. I'm not a lawyer but i have been advised by a lawyer on these issues.
 
I was applying that set of facts to your (where I lived for 15 years) State's laws. If they filed nothing, there is no acquittal no matter where you are from. If its from Illinois, you could be liable under that statute in a civil suit. That's what I'm trying to prove.

Out of respect for the original poster, I am done, you can certainly believe what you want.

Rusellc
 
IMO if a prosecutor wants to go after you he/she will find a way.

I often here you should use the same ammo as the local LEOs use. this way no one can say you were using super-duper killing ammo unless they also want to admit the local police are carrying the same.

In turn a case could be made you are a want-a-be police officer and took matters into your own hands instead of letting the local police handle the situation. Just look at the ammo he used, he wants to be a cop but he's not!

Facts can be twisted in any manner the presenter feels necessary to make you look bad if that's their intention. (the words "no win" come to mind)
 
I was applying that set of facts to your (where I lived for 15 years) State's laws. If they filed nothing, there is no acquittal no matter where you are from. If its from Illinois, you could be liable under that statute in a civil suit. That's what I'm trying to prove.



Out of respect for the original poster, I am done, you can certainly believe what you want.



Rusellc




If there is no acquittal and no trial then my lawyer would use IL law to argue that a civil suit us not allowed as it was justified self defense. You can argue or not argue I don't really care. Personally I'll take the word of an IL lawyer who has studied such cases in IL over the word of some guy on the internet that can't be wrong because he is a lawyer.

Btw, the whole. "You're stupid so stupid I'm going to quit arguing" thing is beyond childish.
 
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