Defensive/Multi-purpose Rifle

[-v-]

M_C_Woodsman - I agree with you, but I offer another option: AR-15 with a 22lr kit. Now, granted I have not had any personal experience with them, but, the idea of a drop in .22lr kit seems to have a lot of merit. Drop in the kit and now you have a good squirrel and rabbit getter to put food in the pot. Conversley, when the need arises, swap the .22lr kit for the regular bolt, and if you had been stockpiling good JSP/JHP ammo, you have a rifle that can take deer-sized game and also to defend yourself with.

Whereas for a social disturbance type event, a PCC in 9, 40, 10mm or 45 is excellent choice as well. Most of the shooting that will need to be done will be done at SMG distances, eg completely within 100 yards, and more likely then not inside 25 yards. A fast, light, low recoiling shoulder arm makes a lot of sense. A sub2000 weighs what 4lb, and can feed from a glock 33 round stick magazine. So there you have a small light carbine that you can quickly and accurately put down 33 rounds of good JHP ammo at whatever 2-legged threat comes your way.

 

[1stmarine]

It is a good rifle but the design has not survived radical innovation.
The only two that have survived radical innovation through the years are the AK and AR based models.
With radical innovation I mean you can still find the same foundation operation system in brand new rifles massively produced with endless options in terms of specialization for many roles including MBR and SPR + endless accessories.
A good example of how this has transcended is the Keltec SU16. Keltec is well known for huge innovation and it incorporates a light receivers with AR locking system integrated with a long stroke piston that looks more like an AK.
It cannot be more simple, reliable and functional than that as it uses the best of both AR and AK principals. I am not saying go with a keltec, I am saying this is an example on how some old designs survive through radical innovation.

It is hard to go wrong with a good quality FAL for SHTF what ever that means, but in every single category, reliability, accuracy, etc.. there are better systems.

 

[Jonny V]

I think it's really two weapons you're after here. The FAL is a great rifle, but you couldn't go wrong with an M1 either. The missing part of your SHTF equation is close quarters combat. The FAL takes care of your "main battle rifle" component. You need a "house gun" and you won't do any better than a Remington 870 with magazine extention.

Plan on 2000 rounds per weapon, for SHTF purposes (according to the internet anyway....)

 

[surfinUSA]

...

 

[J_McLeod]

I agree with the PCC, small carbine idea. In a SHTF scenario, I still don't think it would very likely to need to shoot past 50M, so a quick handling light carbine would be ideal and .308 would just be too much gun and too much bullet.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Medium Power Cartridge?

You know, somewhere out there is a Caliber Leprechaun named Shamus Murphy, whose entire career has been spent making sure that no one single rifle ever meets the ideal profile for an after-the-fan/general-purpose rifle.

Because it's light, fast-handling, and reliable, and uses a compact lightweight medium power cartridge, the M1 Carbine is a serious contender for this position, except . . .
* bullet has poor external ballistics and thus limited range
* cartridge is available commercially in only a precious few application loads
* ammo tends to be scarce in retail stores.

The .22 WMR cartridge is nearly ideal in terms of weight and power, is widely available, and can be had in several different application loadings, but . . .
* for some reason, finding a semi-auto rifle chambered for it is hen's teeth
* it's a rimmed cartridge, and prone to all the ills associated with self-loading applications
* it's a rimfire cartridge, and reliability -- while generally good -- is below centerfire stats

The .223/5.56 cartridge offers superior ballistics, is chambered in a wide variety of rifles, both self-loading and bolt, is a significantly lighter cartridge and more compact than the .308, .243, .270, and so on. In fact, it actually offers more "zing" than necessary in a stayin'-alive multi-purpose rifle.

If only there were a cartridge the size of the .22 WMR, the shape of the .223, that could be fired from something like the M1 Carbine, that would be just about perfect. You could easily carry 200 rounds and have "weight space" for other stuff.

But is there such a cartridge? Almost. The .22 Hornet fits nicely in the ballistic pocket between the .22 WMR and the .223, but the darned thing has a *rim*, which makes it a pain for magazine-fed self loaders.

Well, actually, there *is* a cartridge that I feel is a splendid candidate: the 19 Badger. Yeah, that awkward .30 Carbine round? The base of that case has about the same diameter as the rim on a .22 Hornet, the the case is rimless, smooth-sided, and slightly tapered for easy extraction. Neck that puppy down to something smaller, and presto! The 19 Badger. Better range and ballistics than the .17 HMR and .22 WMR. In fact, you could size it up to .22 and *still* have a cartridge with superior ballistics.

And you would have a light, compact cartridge with respectable range and muzzle energy. The cartridge would have the weight and size advantages of the .30 Carbine, the velocity and external ballistics normally found in the .223, and it would be a rimless centerfire cartridge. Oh, and from what I understand, the thing has nearly no recoil.


So, before civilization ends and I'm forced to choose between my M1 Carbine and one of my .223 rifles, could somebody please wave his wand and bring popularity and mass production to the 19 Badger, and a couple dozen rifles chambered for it?

Give me one of those and a lifetime supply of ammo, and I'll be happy to join you in the woods after the fan.

 

[nathan]

SKS in all its forms. Handy and surprisingly accurate for is design limits. Ammo is cheap and in strippers.

 

[two gun charlie]

Out of personal experience I have learned that absolutely any rifle is better than nothing when the SHTF , as long as you have something , Yes personally I would also prefer a mini-gun with a gazzilion rounds , but if I only have a .303 rifle that will just have to do.
I think that some people worry a lot about what rifle to have while overlooking even more important factors , like fitness , and basic survival knowledge AND SKILL.
If money and an endless strugle with the powers that be were not a problem I would have me a AK-47 , simply because ammo here is in plentifull supply , they are reliable etc.

 

[Strykervet]

I have one, I like it and it is very heavy duty. But you have to do a lot to them to get that accuracy. Some of it is pretty oddball, like gluing down the DSA scope mount with bearing glue, fabricating FF handguards if you want those, and if you use a scope, that stock won't provide a cheek weld. I ended up with a completely different rifle than I started out with, but it is pretty bad. If you just want a rugged battle rifle and don't plan on doing a lot to it, it is a good rifle. If you want something like an SDM rifle, get an AR10. DSA makes the only good FAL I know of, and they cost about as much as an AR10. If you just want a good .308, get an AR10. If you really want an FAL (why I have mine) then get a DSA. They also make the only good scope mount and any aftermarket parts. Jard is the only place that makes a decent trigger I know of, you'll probably want one of those when you see how bad the FAL trigger is, so figure $180 for that. If I did nothing else, I'd do the trigger. The recoil can be nasty for how big and heavy it is, and with an ACOG, it will nail you in the eye every time.

For a bad times rifle, a plain old mil spec M4 is hard to beat.

 

[Art Eatman]

If SHTF is something like the Rodney King riots only moreso, I'd figure an SKS would be adequate. And, after all, the probabilities are very low.

Lotsa choices for precision shooting at long range. Beaucoup more opportunity for that activity.

Whether precision or SHTF, loading your own means more practice for skill, and more accuracy on targets.

 

[valnar]

My vote is for the Vz.58 or a good AK-47. Buy a couple boxes of Brown Bear and you're good to go.

 

[Robert101]

I went for the AR10 (308). In this radical internet world we live in, I'd want a 308 battle rifle in the AR platform. I'm not so stuck on whether it is piston driven, chrome chamber, this that or the other. I think most main-stream AR rifles are of very good quality and will do the job just fine. I always maintain my firearms. One the other hand, nothing wrong with having the best rifle and accessories - enjoy.

 

[shep854]

If I had to "run for it", I'd select my SU-16; light, compact, reliable and plenty powerful & accurate enough for the Southeastern woods. As mentioned, ammo is relatively cheap, plentiful and lightweight.

Of course, it would be heart-breaking to have to leave its safe-mates behind...

 

[Tirod]

I avoided the TEOTWAWKI stuff because most of it is ridiculous speculation. Bugging out to the woods will guarantee most are dead by February 15th. Humans will NOT survive extended exposure to environmental pressure, and living separately away from others just reduces them to being an easy target for any larger group. They become another resource to the others.

If you want to really envision the end of the world - crawl out of the shattered remains of your EF5 destroyed home to see devastation as far as the eye can see. Try finding your way home after hours of rescuing neighbors where you can't even find street signs or recognizable landmarks. As for your guns, you haven't even found them under the rubble, but all your ammo is exposed to the rain, along with your reloading equipment. And there's no running water, except in the gutters. You have about 48 hours before the food in the refrigerator starts spoiling. Toss it out, and all sorts of noxious scavengers start running the streets besides the looters. (And Joplin survivor's have told of that happening to them in each case - I don't even need to make stuff up.)

Social unrest like Katrina is a picnic in comparison. Don't forget, MOST just drove away to never return. It was those who failed to keep back sufficient resources who stayed, and I don't need recommendations based on their "expertise." They plainly had no contingency prepared - even living in a high risk hurricane zone. That's not a good plan, why are so many holding up them as an example of what they would be smart enough not to do?

Exciting, but no real thought behind it, like much of what does get posted on it. You want reality, stand at the intersection of 24th and Iowa overlooking the crushed remains of Joplin High School, or 27th and Maiden Lane where a six story hospital was blown out and nearly pushed off the foundation. Both are schedule for complete demolition to be rebuilt elsewhere.

TEOTWAWKI? I drive into a town that has happened to. What gun? isn't even a topic in that regard, unless as recreation to get away from it. Come visit the Impact Zone and see what we've done so far. Cleaned up a bunch of the mess under the FEMA deadline - and I don't think they expected we could. You folks in the hurricane zone back East will be taught lessons on what can be done better because we did it.

 

[JPG19]

I'm a big 5.56x45/AR-15 fan and would grab mine in such a situation. It's a battle-proven round that can easily and effectively be deployed as a hunting rifle. Accurate, relatively cheap and plentiful ammo that's lightweight, replacement parts that are readily available, it seems to fit the bill IMHO. As for a long range rifle, I'd take a bolt gun chambered in 7.62x51mm. I'd rather have two rifles that excel at their own game over one rifle that does an alright job at both.

 

[45shooter]

I have all the usual "black" or "tactial" rifles in my safe and shoot them frequesntly BUT if S really HTF I'm grabbing my Remington 870 with 18" barrel and extended mag tube. After SHTF (or while S is HTF) I'm going to keep low and out of sight. If bad guys are off in the distance I'm going to remain out of their sight and go the other way. I'm not engaging any BG that's 200 yards away much less 600 yards. Only BG I'm going to engage are ones I can't avoid... close distance.

IMHO shotguns are very under rated weapon system as most people consider them nothing more than a close range weapon that you point in the general direction of the target and pull the trigger... a dummy proof weapon. In reality shotgun is a "thinking man's" weapon. A properly set up shotgun with proper shells is an effective weapon from contact distance out to 100 yards.

When I go away on a long car trip I carry my handgun and the long gun I take is a Remington 870 shotgun. Not a rifle.

 

[Rshooter]

I try to keep water and food on hand for emergencies. That said I would prefer a shotgun also, the nice thing about staying put though is that I have a small collection of arms ready to defend hearth and home. Until the National Guard takes them.

 

[dprice3844444]

223 will be in major abundant supply(military),it's lighter,so you can carry and transport more of it.a short barrelled 12 gauge for up close work,and a 10-22 for small game.it's light,and thousands of rounds are cheap.save the big rifles for sniper work.ammo is way too heavy to carry.ya gotta remember,you will also be carrying food plus water at 7 pounds per gallon.add clothing and med supplies.

 

[mortablunt]

^ Definitely stockpile a lot of things. Also remember that if things really do go infernally wrong that the United States Dollar is not going to be worth very much. Gold is not going to be all that useful either. If you want to do some transactions in an apocalyptic scenario, you are going to need necessities and commodities and services that other people will need to use for trade such as ammunition, water, food, or protection.

 

[Telekinesis]

If you want to really envision the end of the world - crawl out of the shattered remains of your EF5 destroyed home to see devastation as far as the eye can see. Try finding your way home after hours of rescuing neighbors where you can't even find street signs or recognizable landmarks. As for your guns, you haven't even found them under the rubble, but all your ammo is exposed to the rain, along with your reloading equipment. And there's no running water, except in the gutters. You have about 48 hours before the food in the refrigerator starts spoiling. Toss it out, and all sorts of noxious scavengers start running the streets besides the looters. (And Joplin survivor's have told of that happening to them in each case - I don't even need to make stuff up.)

One of these tornadoes struck about an hour north of where I live. It was so bad that there were armed national guardsmen on street corners inside the city, and a curfew was put into effect for anyone without a legit reason to be out (read: if you have a license plate from a different county, you're getting pulled over and questioned). This definitely changed my thoughts on what my likely "SHTF" scenario will be. It is a pretty big leap from "all hell is going to break loose and I'm going to the woods" kind of talk.

223 will be in major abundant supply(military)

If you think the military will just give you ammo in a disaster event, you are sorely mistaken. Short of bribing a supply clerk to "misplace" a few crates of ammo, I can't think of way to get any. Were the military/police handing out ammo during the Katrina clean up? My bet is that if you asked them, they'd throw you to the ground and search you for weapons to steal

 

[valnar]

If you think the military will just give you ammo in a disaster event, you are sorely mistaken.

He he. Yah, I always get a kick out of that assumption too. Unless you yourself are going to become one of those looters you want to defend against, all that matters is what Walmart sells, and you'll have to steal it. The owners of the gun stores will be the first ones there with keys, and I don't think they will give up their stash easily.

That being said, one should not buy an AR-15 just because its abundant. Lets face it, you are not getting any "parts" for your favorite little AR in such a scenario. At best, you'll just be picking up the guns of the dead and using them as-is. You're not going to sit in a corner behind a dumpster and smith a couple AR pieces-parts together in your free time.

Buy what you want for you and yourself only. Buy all the ammo you desire. Don't count on free and abundantly available guns & ammo lying in the streets.

 

[jim243]

Plan on 2000 rounds per weapon, for SHTF purposes (according to the internet anyway....)

My God do you have any idea howmuch 2000 rounds weigh???

Go with the AR it is easier to carry the ammo for that than the FAL, besides the rifle is lighter.

 

[ACP]

Tirod, just wanted to say God Bless You for your work in Joplin. I'm sure more people appreciate you than you will ever know.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

".19 Caliber"

I did a little more research on the "19 Badger" cartridge.

The actual diameter is .198, or nearly .20 caliber, or almost 5.03 mm.

No, I don't know why they didn't call it a .20 cal instead of .19, but hey, there it is.

I guess one of the assumptions in the world of fecal-fan engagement is that it won't be a 10.0 Richter shakeup, an F-5 twister, or some other "nothing-left-afterwards" scenario.

The collapse of a nation's banking system, for example, can lead to "emergency" conditions. See Greece for an approximation. Another large scale "oops" that doesn't take out the infrastructure (at least not directly) is a widespread power outage. You can speculate "how" or just start with "sweeping blackout" as an initial premise. And then there's the old favorite: widespread rioting for [insert-reason-here] causes.

When speculating about "which rifle for social disorder" it's kind of taken as read that the initiating event isn't so destructive that civilization simply sinks beneath the waves.

At one point I was living in an area where a fair-sized forest fire could leave you surrounded by random refugees, exceeding the capacity of local emergency services.

Yes, it's always possible that your house burns down and all your survival equipment and firearms are simply destroyed, but I hafta tell ya, a thread that begins with "what rifle for scenarios where you never get to use it" is probably a non-starter.

Questions about "what's best" kind of assume that an application exists.


With that said, I still like the almost-20-caliber 19 Badger solution, so somebody needs to get on the stick and make it popular, widespread, affordable, and available.

After which you can go ahead and initiate the fecal-fan sequence.

 

[mac66]

I swapped my M1a for an FN/FAL fro a buddy to try out. I shot a 3 gun match with it and a number of other training exercises over the course of several weeks. It was hard to shoot and mag changes were a pain. His was a top of the line version but I did have some reliability problems with it. It also didn't seem very ergonomic. The M1a is not an easy gun to master either.

Interestingly enough I found the easiest battle rifle to use was the Saiga 308 in stock form. It is simple, reliable, fairly accurate and based on the well known AK platform. Actually the Saiga in 7.62x39 is even easier to use, though I prefer the AR platform for serious work. It is my go to rifle.