My Fil has one In .284 i eyeball every time im at their house. 120HP would work form homestead defense right?LoonWolf needs to get a Savage 99 in 308Definitely rectify that gap in the battery ...
Defensive Rifle For Strict Locales?
- Thread starter HGM22
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rodinal220
Member
"According to that link for Cook County, all semi auto's are banned - rifle or shotgun. Pumps allowed. And the following are specifically excludedfrom the ban ."
The Cook County ordinance only applies to unincorporated Cook County and non-home rule municipalities.If you live in a town.city,village that has Home Rule status the Crook County thing does not apply.
http://www.ilga.gov/commission/lrb/con7.htm
(c) If a home rule county ordinance conflicts with an
ordinance of a municipality, the municipal ordinance shall
prevail within its jurisdiction.
The Cook County ordinance only applies to unincorporated Cook County and non-home rule municipalities.If you live in a town.city,village that has Home Rule status the Crook County thing does not apply.
http://www.ilga.gov/commission/lrb/con7.htm
(c) If a home rule county ordinance conflicts with an
ordinance of a municipality, the municipal ordinance shall
prevail within its jurisdiction.
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md7
Member
If semi autos are off the table:
- Lever action in your centerfire caliber of choice. Pairing up a .357 revolver (or 2) with a carbine chambered in .357 would not be bad at all.
- Remington makes (made?) a pump action 223 rifle that uses AR mags. 30 rd mags may be a no go in your area, but laws might change and people somethimes move. And it'd be serviceable in the meantime with restricted capacity mags that might be in line with your laws.
Good luck settling in on something
- Lever action in your centerfire caliber of choice. Pairing up a .357 revolver (or 2) with a carbine chambered in .357 would not be bad at all.
- Remington makes (made?) a pump action 223 rifle that uses AR mags. 30 rd mags may be a no go in your area, but laws might change and people somethimes move. And it'd be serviceable in the meantime with restricted capacity mags that might be in line with your laws.
Good luck settling in on something
Llama Bob
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I'd look seriously at this. Lever guns are the fastest of the manual repeaters (about 2x as fast as a Mauser-style bolt rifle) and the .357 is a very suitable self defense cartridge. Magazine capacity is large-ish too. A Winchester model 92 would serve well.
Shouldn't have to worry about accidentally releasing the Mag either
Llama Bob
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I guess you can potentially blow the mag up with the wrong ammo thoughShouldn't have to worry about accidentally releasing the Mag either
Life is full of variety...
Legionnaire
Contributing Member
I'd give serious thought to a Mossberg 500 Bantam (youth) in 20 gauge with an 18-inch cylinder barrel. Lots of utility from bird shot to buck shot to slugs, loaded in any order you like.
Runner up would be a Marlin 1894 in .357 mag.
Runner up would be a Marlin 1894 in .357 mag.
BrocLuno
Member
yeah, that's an interesting one too... But there is something about going to the range with all the 308 bolt and gas gun boys with your old Sav 99. They all look at you funny and snicker about old guys and old guns ... Then you lay a three shot group into an 1 1/2" w/o really trying and it gets sorta quiet
denton
Member
Most people learned all they know about guns by watching TV and going to the movies. That includes legislators.
So the lesson of the movies is that the bad guys have black AR-looking guns that spray bullets, and almost never run out. John Wayne, and the other good guys, all carried lever actions. Lever actions good guys, black rifles bad guys. It has been ingrained for decades.
So most uninformed people's visceral reaction to a lever action will be very different from their reaction to anything black with a magazine poking out.
Get a lever action, and look like a good guy. (Practice your western drawl, and get a white hat if you like.)
A 357 Mag Marlin is more than adequate for any social work. It holds 10 38 Spl or 9 357 Mag rounds. Most body armor is designed to stop up to a 9mm round. 357 out of a handgun will probably penetrate. 357 out of a carbine...I think would leave a hole in both the front and the back of a bad guy's vest.
So the lesson of the movies is that the bad guys have black AR-looking guns that spray bullets, and almost never run out. John Wayne, and the other good guys, all carried lever actions. Lever actions good guys, black rifles bad guys. It has been ingrained for decades.
So most uninformed people's visceral reaction to a lever action will be very different from their reaction to anything black with a magazine poking out.
Get a lever action, and look like a good guy. (Practice your western drawl, and get a white hat if you like.)
A 357 Mag Marlin is more than adequate for any social work. It holds 10 38 Spl or 9 357 Mag rounds. Most body armor is designed to stop up to a 9mm round. 357 out of a handgun will probably penetrate. 357 out of a carbine...I think would leave a hole in both the front and the back of a bad guy's vest.
I disagree with the idea that "low penetration" ammo would be a better choice.
First, the perps aren't following that rule so only half the firefight can be controlled that way. Second, no amount of reducing the ammo propellant will keep the bullet from penetrating thru a typical stick built wall. Even 22's can get thru and if still traveling over 450 fps can kill.
Its a false hope and leaves you undergunned in a face off with intruders armed shooting thru doors and walls at you anyway. It's definitely NOT military tactics either - take a course in warfare in urban areas and it's thoroughly discussed.
If bullets start flying you will be dealing with it. Your better recourse is to stop the intruder shooting as quickly as possible, therefore you want ammo that penetrates and gets a hit. Once hit the intruder may or may not be able to continue, but they certainly will note you aren't fooling around.
Handgun cartridges are the weak sister in defense - note carefully that no army issues them as the primary weapon. In hunting circles the handgun season is the lightly attended and rarely featured method for taking down game. While we read about it on the internet a lot, the real indicator is that the SWAT team that might respond to your frantic call isn't coming in with their sidearms as the primary weapon either - they will be using M4's with short barrels, possibly silencers, in 5.56, and some could be full auto.
Go surf picture of hostage standoffs in real life and most of the cops have rifles out. Not 9mm's which largely remain holstered. Don't set yourself up for failure - the professional use of rifles in urban combat is the standard.
What so many are worried about is shooting thru a wall and killing an innocent kid. If so - just exactly in which direction would that likely be? Home defense means understanding where the likely lanes of fire will be, if the perps are shooting from the front door at you, where will you be and what is behind you? Hopefully NOT your family. Don't put them as the backstop for the intruder's bullets. And don't downsize your gun leaving you inadequately prepared to stop them. Again, the sooner you stop them shooting the sooner they stop endangering you and your neighbors.
If you prepare your family - which most won't do - then they will be on the floor, about the best that can be arranged. Otherwise they will be in panic screaming and some might be clinging to you, again, don't put them in the line of fire. It's typical to discuss this subject focusing on the gun as the primary issue but the reality is that the homeowner usually has no idea of the issues and how to conduct themselves. Most of that isn't "gun forum" unfortunately, like just why did they pick you anyway? Sticking to the OP's relevant issue - a lever gun in a RIFLE cartridge will be better than an undergunned pistol cartridge. Perps facing that will not have adequate cover and the bullets will reach them pretty much regardless of what they hide behind. Good hunting ammo is the preferred load.
Don't shortchange yourself. "Penetration" is an issue most unschooled gun owners don't understand well.
First, the perps aren't following that rule so only half the firefight can be controlled that way. Second, no amount of reducing the ammo propellant will keep the bullet from penetrating thru a typical stick built wall. Even 22's can get thru and if still traveling over 450 fps can kill.
Its a false hope and leaves you undergunned in a face off with intruders armed shooting thru doors and walls at you anyway. It's definitely NOT military tactics either - take a course in warfare in urban areas and it's thoroughly discussed.
If bullets start flying you will be dealing with it. Your better recourse is to stop the intruder shooting as quickly as possible, therefore you want ammo that penetrates and gets a hit. Once hit the intruder may or may not be able to continue, but they certainly will note you aren't fooling around.
Handgun cartridges are the weak sister in defense - note carefully that no army issues them as the primary weapon. In hunting circles the handgun season is the lightly attended and rarely featured method for taking down game. While we read about it on the internet a lot, the real indicator is that the SWAT team that might respond to your frantic call isn't coming in with their sidearms as the primary weapon either - they will be using M4's with short barrels, possibly silencers, in 5.56, and some could be full auto.
Go surf picture of hostage standoffs in real life and most of the cops have rifles out. Not 9mm's which largely remain holstered. Don't set yourself up for failure - the professional use of rifles in urban combat is the standard.
What so many are worried about is shooting thru a wall and killing an innocent kid. If so - just exactly in which direction would that likely be? Home defense means understanding where the likely lanes of fire will be, if the perps are shooting from the front door at you, where will you be and what is behind you? Hopefully NOT your family. Don't put them as the backstop for the intruder's bullets. And don't downsize your gun leaving you inadequately prepared to stop them. Again, the sooner you stop them shooting the sooner they stop endangering you and your neighbors.
If you prepare your family - which most won't do - then they will be on the floor, about the best that can be arranged. Otherwise they will be in panic screaming and some might be clinging to you, again, don't put them in the line of fire. It's typical to discuss this subject focusing on the gun as the primary issue but the reality is that the homeowner usually has no idea of the issues and how to conduct themselves. Most of that isn't "gun forum" unfortunately, like just why did they pick you anyway? Sticking to the OP's relevant issue - a lever gun in a RIFLE cartridge will be better than an undergunned pistol cartridge. Perps facing that will not have adequate cover and the bullets will reach them pretty much regardless of what they hide behind. Good hunting ammo is the preferred load.
Don't shortchange yourself. "Penetration" is an issue most unschooled gun owners don't understand well.
kBob
Member
If I lived in a place that hated and put legal restrictions on "Black Rifles" I would likely get a nice .357 Magnum lever gun. I like M92 types over marlins myself. Don't laugh but I might even prefer a 1873 model over a Marlin for myself just for giggles. Ok also because I find the hard angles of the marlin displeasing to my eyes and hands. Also with the 1873 one over length round can really mess things up, but watching your ammo quality is all part of it and though more tolerant the same can be set of the angle feeding guns as well. I have not handled a Henry Big boy yet on a range but they don't look bad.
Now basically in an HD situation with all these .357 tube feeders, what is in the magazine is what you've got......but that is only about three times what is typically needed. Maybe you will be I that uber rare Home Defense situation where more than nine rounds are needed.......maybe you shoud dash out and buy a power ball ticket as it is up over 255 million as I type, your odds are way better for that.
I actually DO LIKE the idea that on the Henry Bigboys that the magazine tube is a two sleeve tube just like on the rimfire guns and the inner tube can be completely removed from the rifle. I am one of those nut boys that learned back in the decade of free love that one could carry multi shot reloads for such guns in simple tubes and drop half a dozen, or more, down the front of the tube while everyone else wsa fumbling with single rounds. With the .22rf stuff I today use sections of old aluminum arrows,(sections of old TV antennas in the way back) but I rather imagine it would not be hard to find a tube that would hold 5 or 9 .357 to drop the same way. Sure you have a single shot while reloading in a defensive situation but, hey, I do it mainly for range shooting these days with .22s.
I really like what was said about the imagery of the lever gun calling forth thoughts of the good guys. Back when there was only the GEnie net work for internet and police were just starting to replace the 870 shotgun on the dash and Winchester 94 in the trunk with ARs and (silly meter carbines of semi or full auto type there was a debate on this very topic. Those of us that tried to make folks under stand that ARs and Black Carbines would make the general public even more likely to think "Jack Booted Thugs" than Officer Friendly ......lost, and I think community policing lost as well. Alas in the minds of most folks "The Blue Knight" is no more. Just something to think about if you and your rifle might be standing before a Grand Jury at some point of folks that just read the newspaper and watch the idiot box.......your peers.
On the very small chance that any of my college papers should ever show up on line......yes I was a big proponent of subdued Police uniforms, boots, and "military weaponry" as semi auto pistols and AR180's were called in the 1970's police circles. As I have gotten older I see the issues with those I could not see then, being focused on only what might be best for the individual officer rather than society as a whole.
John Wayne, Jimmy Stewart, Randolf Scott, Alan Ladd, even Roy and Dale..... would much rather remind a grand jury of them than say Rambo, Commando Swartzenager, or Scarface and his little friend.
Whatever you get among the lever guns be sure to practice with what you plan to use as they can be rather ammo sensitive in the pistol calibers. Also consider the range and lighting conditions you will be shooting under and see if you might train for that rather than bullseye targets on a well lit range and half a football field away.
Guys.....keep in mind that not everyone on THR lives in a free state or even a gun friendly one.
-kBob
Now basically in an HD situation with all these .357 tube feeders, what is in the magazine is what you've got......but that is only about three times what is typically needed. Maybe you will be I that uber rare Home Defense situation where more than nine rounds are needed.......maybe you shoud dash out and buy a power ball ticket as it is up over 255 million as I type, your odds are way better for that.
I actually DO LIKE the idea that on the Henry Bigboys that the magazine tube is a two sleeve tube just like on the rimfire guns and the inner tube can be completely removed from the rifle. I am one of those nut boys that learned back in the decade of free love that one could carry multi shot reloads for such guns in simple tubes and drop half a dozen, or more, down the front of the tube while everyone else wsa fumbling with single rounds. With the .22rf stuff I today use sections of old aluminum arrows,(sections of old TV antennas in the way back) but I rather imagine it would not be hard to find a tube that would hold 5 or 9 .357 to drop the same way. Sure you have a single shot while reloading in a defensive situation but, hey, I do it mainly for range shooting these days with .22s.
I really like what was said about the imagery of the lever gun calling forth thoughts of the good guys. Back when there was only the GEnie net work for internet and police were just starting to replace the 870 shotgun on the dash and Winchester 94 in the trunk with ARs and (silly meter carbines of semi or full auto type there was a debate on this very topic. Those of us that tried to make folks under stand that ARs and Black Carbines would make the general public even more likely to think "Jack Booted Thugs" than Officer Friendly ......lost, and I think community policing lost as well. Alas in the minds of most folks "The Blue Knight" is no more. Just something to think about if you and your rifle might be standing before a Grand Jury at some point of folks that just read the newspaper and watch the idiot box.......your peers.
On the very small chance that any of my college papers should ever show up on line......yes I was a big proponent of subdued Police uniforms, boots, and "military weaponry" as semi auto pistols and AR180's were called in the 1970's police circles. As I have gotten older I see the issues with those I could not see then, being focused on only what might be best for the individual officer rather than society as a whole.
John Wayne, Jimmy Stewart, Randolf Scott, Alan Ladd, even Roy and Dale..... would much rather remind a grand jury of them than say Rambo, Commando Swartzenager, or Scarface and his little friend.
Whatever you get among the lever guns be sure to practice with what you plan to use as they can be rather ammo sensitive in the pistol calibers. Also consider the range and lighting conditions you will be shooting under and see if you might train for that rather than bullseye targets on a well lit range and half a football field away.
Guys.....keep in mind that not everyone on THR lives in a free state or even a gun friendly one.
-kBob
bannockburn
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Under those political conditions (anti-gun location), I would opt for an M1 Carbine or else a Rossi Model 92 in .357 Mag. or .45 Colt.
what caliber do you want?
Not up to date on the last Chicago drama but traditionally the ruger mini 14 for 5.56 or the M1a for .308 are okay semi auto rifles.
There is some modernized M1As with traditional rifle stocks and the M1A is a fine rifle.
Down sides compared to an AR10 are not as easy to mount an optic with short eye relief or a cheap stable way like on a flat top AR, and just a tad more weight (not so bad in the synthetic stocks) and more forward center of gravity. The rifle is also not as modular with tons of competing aftermarket support, and the reliable quality magazines not as inexpensive. And it is not as easy to get sub moa accuracy because you need to bed the rifle rather.
But otherwise it is a fine action, the upgrade of the Garand with a detachable magazine and quite rugged and reliable. Easily one of the more durable firearms.
Not up to date on the last Chicago drama but traditionally the ruger mini 14 for 5.56 or the M1a for .308 are okay semi auto rifles.
There is some modernized M1As with traditional rifle stocks and the M1A is a fine rifle.
Down sides compared to an AR10 are not as easy to mount an optic with short eye relief or a cheap stable way like on a flat top AR, and just a tad more weight (not so bad in the synthetic stocks) and more forward center of gravity. The rifle is also not as modular with tons of competing aftermarket support, and the reliable quality magazines not as inexpensive. And it is not as easy to get sub moa accuracy because you need to bed the rifle rather.
But otherwise it is a fine action, the upgrade of the Garand with a detachable magazine and quite rugged and reliable. Easily one of the more durable firearms.
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CraigC
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bannockburn
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Merle1
Looked at the Cook County, IL definiition of "Assault Weapons", as well as their listing of semi-auto rifles and the M1 Carbine does not seem to qualify as an assault weapon and is not on the list. Didn't see the M1 Rifle or SKS Carbine on the list either. The Ruger Mini 14 is on the list though.
Looked at the Cook County, IL definiition of "Assault Weapons", as well as their listing of semi-auto rifles and the M1 Carbine does not seem to qualify as an assault weapon and is not on the list. Didn't see the M1 Rifle or SKS Carbine on the list either. The Ruger Mini 14 is on the list though.
Panzerschwein
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SKS with a sack full of strippers. Wood or poly stock.
bannockburn
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Merle1
It would seem the politicians who came up with these requirements were more concerned with pistol grips, protruding grips, folding, telescoping, or thumbhole stocks, barrel shrouds, and muzzle brakes than they were with the other more mundane features a semi-automatic rifle might possess.
It would seem the politicians who came up with these requirements were more concerned with pistol grips, protruding grips, folding, telescoping, or thumbhole stocks, barrel shrouds, and muzzle brakes than they were with the other more mundane features a semi-automatic rifle might possess.
RPRNY
Member
That's because the legal theory thus far upheld in lower courts to my understanding (and ever ready for correction) is that state and local regulations may ban features of firearms but not classes of firearms as upheld in Miller ?
By banning features, they hope to impose severe restrictions on classes. The tortuous language used in CT, NY and CA laws are all designed to make legal ownership of the semi-auto rifle (about the least used firearm in shootings) extremely difficult. The mind of the alt-left legislator is a scary, small, but labyrinthine place...
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Theohazard
Member
A .223 defensive load has better terminal ballistics than a pistol round like 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP. Now, once you get to .357 Mag fired out of a rifle-length barrel things start to even up as far as terminal ballistics go. But I'd still give the nod in overall effectiveness to the .223 semi-auto for two reasons: First, it's faster to shoot accurately: the recoil on the .223 will be less and it's also a semi-auto, both of which allow for much faster follow-up shots. Second, ballistic-tipped .223 tends to be able to defeat soft body armor better than pistol cartridges, even while maintaining the ability to fragment violently in soft tissue. I think it's unlikely that I'll have more than one intruder in my house or that they'll be wearing soft body armor, but a .223 semi-auto gives me a better chance against those two threats.Craig C said:
But it appears that this discussion is pointless considering any magazine-fed semi-auto is off the table. In that case I'd probably go with a 16" .357 Mag lever-action.
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Ohen Cepel
Member
.357 lever gun would be my pick if you are limited. Even if you're not limited it has a lot going for it.
If you want a "tacticool" lever Browning makes a takedown in rifle calibers and Mossberg makes one with a collapsible AR style stock in 30-30 with a ton of rails on it.
If you want a "tacticool" lever Browning makes a takedown in rifle calibers and Mossberg makes one with a collapsible AR style stock in 30-30 with a ton of rails on it.
ECVMatt
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I am kind of a .357 rifle nut and have an H&R, Winchester 94, Marlin 1894, and a Ruger 77/357. They are all great rifles and work well on medium sized things. I have used the Winchester with great effect on hogs at close range. they pretty much drop on the spot. I would have no problems using this around the home and have on several occasions. I also like it for camping in the desert or the low mountains where only smaller critters roam. It is low key, but plenty powerful. I am also eyeing the Henry. The mag tube is kind of a bummer and precludes topping off as you go, but other than that it's pretty solid. I have had poor luck with Rossi's, but others have had better experiences. Like many others have stated, go with a solid .357 and don't look back.
md7
Member
Originally I said .357 lever paired with a revolver. I still think that'd be a sufficient choice.
It seems some types of semi autos are still Cook County Kosher, and sks is one of em. Given that info, I would give strong consideration to an sks with a bunch of stripper clips.
Could be a formidable defensive carbine with a bit of practice.
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