Definitive answer on the "AR w/ removed disconnector" issue

[Arizona_Mike]

I had a Geissele trigger where the ramp on the 9mm upper was not fully engaging the disconnector. The hammer follow never set off even the soft pistol primer, never mind a rifle primer.

Mike

 

[smutna_krabice]

Arizona_Mike: is the bolt and firing pin used by the 9mm upper the same as on regular .223 uppers, or are there differences in length, mass and design?
Thanks

 

[yugorpk]

Ive seen someone grind and smooth the notch off an AR-15 hammer , remove the disconnector and dump a whole 30 round mag using soft primer .223 . 'Twas a long time ago. Anyone who says it cant be done is reading that straight off the internet. Would I do it? Nope. I like my hands and face where they are but I know it can be done.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

They are blow back so the bolts are heavy by design but I'm sure it is close to the weight on an M16 bolt. They use a smaller firing pin.

Mike

 

[taliv]

i've also had a few disconnectors wear to the point that the gun would fire 2 or 3 rounds when you pulled the trigger. they are wear items imho. I keep extras in my kit so i can replace them immediately when needed.

The point is, you cannot make a blanket statement that you cannot modify an AR15 to fire full auto easily, because 15 people will pipe up and show you 20 different ways to do it. All they have to do is start with a simple, innocent set of assumptions different than yours, like different parts. Then you lose credibility.

You can speak with more confidence if you put your statements in a more specific context, and qualify your statements like the above posters who said "reliably".

 

[hq]

Anyone who says it cant be done is reading that straight off the internet.

Maybe we didn't put enough effort in it as teenagers, but trust me, we really tried to make that happen. The best efforts resulted in doubling. Once.

 

[smutna_krabice]

Taliv: I am using reference to "reliably" in the document, but came here to found how much unreliable it was.

The point is that we argue that removing the disconnector would result in "such unreliable rifle criminals wouldn't dare to use it" - because, for example, their intended victims would use the jam to take down the criminals. So that's the "reliability threshold" I am trying to verify.

The last comment about rifle being able to "dump whole 30-round mag" got me slightly nervous, but then again, I presume very few European criminals would have the knowledge to use soft primers and the increased wear&tear in bolt-following mode would result in reliability dropping quite fast to un-usable levels - or do you thing such modified rifle would be able to be safely smuggled into the destination and then used to fire multiple magazines without repeatedly jamming and possibly suffering catastrophic damage?

 

[Sam1911]

Could one be tinkered with until it would do so? Sure, eventually, with work and patience. It could be done. A lot of folks try and never get it to work. Some don't intend to and miraculously find themselves with a gun that doubles or triples sometimes.

Would that be easier than almost any other way of getting a full auto rifle (if for some reason that was important to anyone)? No.

 

[Aikibiker]

You are going about this all wrong man.

You should be reaching out to firearms manufacturers not THR. Write some emails to anyone and everyone you can think of that makes ARs. Follow that up with actual letters. I would start with companies that sell in the European market since this proposed new law will impact their sales.

I would start with Oberland Arms and Sabre Defense.

 

[MistWolf]

I asked Jack Leuba of Knight's Armament and he said the AR will not fire full auto with the disconnector removed. The hammer would simply follow the carrier

 

[smutna_krabice]

MistWolf: that's great, thanks a lot!

 

[axxxel]

There is also an official statement made by an arms expert in the Swedish defense forces. It revolves around the Colt SP1 and its suitability for sporting purposes.

The arms expert very briefly stated that semi-auto receivers are very difficult to modify to full auto and that the SP1 is a suitable model for sporting purposes.

This obsession with full auto is silly, by the way.

 

[hq]

Oh, by the way, I just remember one thing that might or might not be relevant. The Supreme Administrative Court of Finland made a prejudicatory decision in 1986 that AR15-type rifles are, by definition, hunting and sporting rifles. Not military rifles, direct derivatives thereof nor can they be readily converted to full automatic fire, based on considerable mechanical differences in the design.

I might have a copy of that document (in finnish) in my archives. If not, one can be obtained from the Administrative Supreme Court archive for a nominal fee.

 

[Hookeye]

Have seen two ARs have hammer follow, run multiple shots per one pull of trigger.
Both were missing the disconnector spring.

Didn't know if it'd shoot 1 shot, 3 or 4, or run the mag.

Both owners quickly had proper spring put in.
One guy built his own, mucked it up. Other bought his that way........freaked him bad.
Simple fix. Ran fine afterward.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I never say never, but the way an AR bolt functions, there would be insufficient force for slamfire ignition. This pin will protrude as the bolt is rotating, the hammer riding it, not hitting it.

Open bolt guns are the ones which are easily and reliably converted to full auto because they slam fire by design. Anything closed bolt will have hammer follow, which makes a slam fire unreliable and, in most designs, highly improbable.

Anyone who doubts it need only pull the disconnector to confirm that your AR becomes a single shot.

That video is total bravo sierra. 2 different rifles, the second is an M-16. The added part shown is designed to effectively lengthen the underside of an SP1 or AR-15 carrier to engage an auto sear. The cop flips the happy switch; a FA selector will not depress an AR-15 disconnector due to the closed off trigger and bobbed disconnector tang:

Ive seen someone grind and smooth the notch off an AR-15 hammer , remove the disconnector and dump a whole 30 round mag using soft primer .223

This smacks of rumor. Anyone who understood the AR FCG would know that grinding down the disconnector notch is pointless if the disconnector has been removed.

Have seen two ARs have hammer follow, run multiple shots per one pull of trigger.
Both were missing the disconnector spring.

Didn't know if it'd shoot 1 shot, 3 or 4, or run the mag.

Not buying this either. If the trigger were still in tact and in place, hammer follow would stop as soon as you released. It wouldn't run away.

 

[sawdeanz]

I don't think I've seen it mentioned here but the video that the EU is basing it's decision on clearly shows 2 separate guns (compare the barrel lengths) and obviously the fact that they have an edit in the video between the two demonstrations doesn't support the EU's assertion that it can be done in less than a minute. Lastly it can be demonstrated that the receiver in the video is either not a civilian version (or at the least is a civilian receiver containing full auto parts) by the fact that the selector can be flipped to the third position.

I know this doesn't prove your position, but pointing out these flaws should at the very least discredit the video and any assertions based on the video.

 

[rbernie]

Ive seen someone grind and smooth the notch off an AR-15 hammer , remove the disconnector and dump a whole 30 round mag using soft primer .223

I've seen a handful of cases in which an AR shooter experienced multiple shots for what they claimed was a single trigger pull. In every case, one of two issues were determined to be in play - either the user was inadvertently bump firing the gun (facilitated by an aftermarket trigger with travel that was too light/short) or the FCG mating surfaces were mucked with and the hammer was being released in an uncontrollable manner due to the effects of recoil.

 

[Sam1911]

Ahhh, that brings in a whole 'nother question the original poster probably doesn't want to consider. There are devices, stocks, triggers, and even simple methods that can make almost any semi-auto rifle repeatedly fire in a way that seems, to the uneducated observer, to be exactly like full-auto fire. "Bump firing" is the classic term for that whole category.

A very great many doubles and triples which could be blamed on worn disconnectors or sears are probably actually caused by a light touch on a light trigger of a gun with just the right recoil impulse to walk the gun back and forth against your trigger finger.

I have an AKS-74 that I could probably fool some people with (regarding it being full-auto) even though it has a completely stock, unmodified commercial US semi-auto fire control group.

I don't know how that helps or hurts the OP's point, but it sure can explain a lot of fallacious or mistaken videos one might see.

 

[JShirley]

smutna_krabice,

There is an alternative way. Can you get a permit to make, or attempt to make a fully automatic weapon purely for demonstrative purposes? You could even have a police officer present during the entire proceeding.

You could then video record the popularly supposed ways to easily do an illegal conversion, and demonstrate whether they worked, or worked reliably, as well as give an exact amount for the time involved.

John

 

[Hookeye]

I don't care if you're "buying this" or not.
Gunshop with range.......I worked there.
Customer blasting full auto, kinda sorta. Said he had to pull the charging handle after it'd stop (after 1 shot, a few or a mag dump).

It was missing the disconnector spring.
I put one in and it worked as it should.

Not internet BS. I saw it, and fixed it. And saw it one other time.

Grinding the bump off the hammer might allow for full hammer ride as some have mentioned (dunno, don't care).

But that isn't the same as having the hammer follow with a slight delay from disco slide off (lack of spring).

Dunno if the rigs I personally saw had a little delay in the follow or not.
Missing disco springs did allow for follow and more than one bang per pull of trigger (but not always). I'd guess the avg amount was 4-8 rounds.

We have legit full auto guys run on the range so we thought that just another proper M16............until the "new to AR's" guy came out and asked why he had to pull the charging handle again when it stopped.

The guns in question multiple fired with constant press on the trigger.

That's a big no-no. If a gun malfunctions in such a manner it's supposed to get fixed ASAP. And they were.

 

[rbernie]

Not internet BS. I saw it, and fixed it. And saw it one other time.

I have no doubt that your assertions are correct - absent the spring, the disconnector was likely catching the hammer initially and then jarring off (as opposed to the hammer following the bolt in the absence of a disconnector).

But that isn't the same as having the hammer follow with a slight delay from disco slide off (lack of spring).

Exactly so. If the hammer is free to follow the bolt from the get-go (e.g. as would happen in the complete absence of a disconnector), it's not likely to have the energy to set anything off on any sort of a consistent basis.

 

[Hookeye]

Heck, I was on a club outdoor range and one of the old timer officers came over and told me not to run FA stuff.

Had a heck of a time convincing him the FNC para was semi auto.
And that trigger aint the best.

Can make an AR trigger halfway decent......JP springs, set screw ahead of grip screw and a little grind on safety area of trigger...one can take out much of the creep and make it pretty easy to bump fire. Of course when you take most of the creep out with the screw, then you don't have the trigger move back, so the disco has only the movement within the trigger to work, so it may need dressed to function (won't release without such- if trying to adjust as much creep out as possible). Will that removal of material on the front and change in working range make for accelerated wear of the disco? I dunno.

Doubt a yote rifle gets shot that much

 

[Hookeye]

FWIW I have never seen anybody try to run an AR without a disconnector.
The spring, I can see how somebody not really paying attention could mess that up.
Proly had it in upside down initially and it was loose (fell out during assembly).

Had a guy change the grip on a Colt. Trigger wouldn't work at all.
I popped the grip and lo' and behold.........the safety detent spring had popped from the grip, unnoticed.......and he scrunched it ahead of the grip screw.

He had no idea what happened. I saw the Magpul grip on it and guessed right off.
Same for the guys who claim to need "anti walk pins". On reg semi auto..............yeah, hammer spring not in right.

Common stuff you see at the range LOL.

 

[Hookeye]

With the $$$ triggers available, one can run an AR pretty darn fast.
Plenty fast enough I reckon.

Fast enough to negate any want (legal or illegal) for FA.

But I have never seen the appeal of FA. Fair number of guys around with legal rigs............but they to a man are a pretty odd duck LOL.

 

[yugorpk]

smutna_krabice,

There is an alternative way. Can you get a permit to make, or attempt to make a fully automatic weapon purely for demonstrative purposes? You could even have a police officer present during the entire proceeding.

You could then video record the popularly supposed ways to easily do an illegal conversion, and demonstrate whether they worked, or worked reliably, as well as give an exact amount for the time involved.

John

You sure can. Its called a 02/07 SOT license. It will cost you about $3000 + per year with the licensing and useless state dept fees.