Purchase Advice - Best AR-15/M4 for extended rapid fire? Slide Fire SSAR-15 stock

[Z Y Z Y]

Seeking expert advice and suggestions regarding which AR-15/M4 rifle I should purchase for the following purposes in 5.56 (or maybe 7.62x39):

After looking at the Slide Fire Solutions SSAR-15 stock, I have decided to pursue an appropriate rifle that can withstand high and extended rates of fire while maintaining a long service life. Presently I own and prefer my semi-auto G3 or AK-47, but having the ability to shoot more rapidly would be nice.

I have already looked at the MGI Military MARCK-15 HYDRA in 7.62x39 because it accepts AK-47 magazines, but I do not know yet if the lower is the standard AR-15/M4 size to accept the Slide Fire stock. Does anyone know off hand? I’m also still interested in the 7.62x39 idea as long as standard AK-47 magazines and drums could be employed.

That issue aside, let’s talk for a moment about piston driven rifles please. After looking around for piston driven rifles, I am not seeing many available that appear to have the standard AR-15/M4 lower to accept a Slide Fire stock. Bushmaster (5.56) seems to have an upper that one can purchase which is piston driven. Is anyone familiar with what might be available?

It seems that I might be wanting a chrome lined chamber and barrel, also a heavy barrel, but if anyone disagrees please let me know. (Although I still want the barrel threaded.) One of the things I was wondering about are the finishes that are out there, talking about protecting your rifle while at the same time eliminating the need for oil (which can create fouling problems for AR-15/M4 rifles). Would this be advisable for shooting a lot of rounds through one rifle in the AR-15/M4 platform?

Some of the other names I was looking at are Rock River Arms and Stag Arms (5.56). Are there any other recommended manufacturers or specific rifle suggestions? It is necessary for the AR-15/M4 type rifle to have the standard lower and trigger guard, along with a mil spec buffer tube in order for the Slide Fire to function. As a side point I don’t feel like spending an arm and a leg so let’s maybe steer clear of HK and Colt rifles for the sake of this discussion.

Please keep in mind that I’m personally interested in this concept (even if you think it is stupid) and know that the accuracy would not be inherently quite as tight as a real fully automatic weapon (of which I have shot and even owned in the past), so if you just want to nay-say, poo poo, or try to ridicule this project with lots of negativity…then let’s just save us both the time and headache.

Just looking for some guidance on mating the Slide Fire stock with the best and most appropriate semi-auto AR-15/M4 to do the job. Thank you!

 

[Rubber_Duck]

Why not buy an standard AR? You will spend more money wasting your ammo with the slide fire stock than what it will cost to replace the barrel. You might even get lucky and realize how ridiculous that stock is and ditch it before you even wear out your first barrel.

Opinions aside, a BCM or DD cold hammer forged barrel will last a very long time, and if you want the most durable go with a Noveske N4. They use M249 machine gun barrel blanks with chrome lining twice as thick as a standard mil-spec AR. I don't know of anyone who has shot one out, though any barrel can fail if subjected to unrealistic overheating.

 

[12131]

^^^^^^What Rubber Duck said.

 

[ugaarguy]

You dont need a piston - they induce carrier tilt in AR-15 type rifles.

You DO need to lube ARs. The DI ARs will run when absolutely filthy if you keep the BCG wet.

Rubber Duck has already covered your best bbl. options. If you get the Noveske N4 get it it with the VLTOR VIS upper so you can change the bbl easily.

 

[Rubber_Duck]

The LMT MRP is another excellent option if you intend to change barrels a lot.

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

If you intend to throw thousands of rounds downrange as fast as possible, why don't you get a upper chambered in 5.45 then you can shoot milsurp for 1080@$129 as opposed to .223 for 1,000 @ $330. The difference will pay for itself after the first thousand or two.

 

[wally]

why don't you get a upper chambered in 5.45 then you can shoot milsurp for 1080@$129 as opposed to .223 for 1,000 @ $330

That or a pistol caliber upper. That way if you reload you can get the cost down to about like setting off fireworks

I've got my Slide-Fire on an AR with a 7.62x25 upper, that makes having slide-Fire fun about $1 per second.

The novelty wears of quickly, but everyone has an ear to ear grin after that first magazine!

 

[Patriotme]

You're basically planning on firing full auto even though technically and most importantly, legally, you're not officially doing so. To each his own.
I would suggest going as Milspec as possible (Colt, BCM, etc) as the barrel steel is different between some of the brands out there. It doesn't really matter that much if you're simply firing semi auto but you're going to be putting a bit more wear and tear on on the weapon than most. Why not buy something that is closest to the M4 or M16 as these are intended to fire in 3 rnd bursts?
Then there's all of the testing that's done on the BCG. Some of the bolts and bolt carrier groups are tested in batches and others are individually tested. Some have the auto BCG. Other's have the lighter weight semi auto BCG. Both are legal in the semi auto M4's and clones.
Check out the new version of "The Chart" to see what I'm talking about in regards to barrel steel.
Long story short....some M4 clones are nice budget guns that will serve you well while others are built and tested to a higher degree. You plan on putting more wear and tear on your M4/AR than most. Buy a better gun.
BTW, Sturmgewehre reviewed the Slidefire stock on his YouTube page. It's not my thing but it's kind of interesting and a lot better than bump firing if you absolutely have to fire full auto without having a full auto gun.

 

[Z Y Z Y]

Thank you everyone for the ideas and advice! I'll be spending more time considering these suggestions. It's all great stuff!

 

[jad0110]

Even if you end up with a budget gun from Stag or CMMG, I would certainly consider upgrading the Bolt Carrier Group to a Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense, LMT ... etc. The BCG is the heart of the rifle, definitely not something to scrimp on. I had a Del-Ton with a carrier key that wasn't even staked; it came loose after only about 400 rounds and caused a 100% FTE rate, turning the gun into a single shot.

As for a piston, IMO there isn't anything wrong with a DI AR. I've shot AK, SKSs and ARs; all with dirty surplus ammo. Honestly, I notice very little difference in how crudded up the rifles get. Some here claim a night and day difference, but I've never seen it. Most of the crap that gets into the receiver comes right out of the bore and out of the fired case anyway.

As for a heavy barrel, that's probably the way to go. I don't like the way they balance, but I don't do much rapid fire, so I stick to the pencil barrels myself.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

I'd go with Noveske. They are expensive but the m249 is made for that stuff and that's the barrel they use.
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display2.cgi?cat=106

 

[benEzra]

Definitely peruse "The Chart" before making a purchase. I do believe that RRA receiver extensions are "commercial" spec, rather than milspec (the diameters are slightly different, IIRC).

If you don't want to spring for a tier 1 AR for cost reasons, definitely exclude pistons from consideration. You will not find a quality piston setup for the price of a quality DI setup, IMO.

 

[pawnshopguru]

Opinion from a Slide Fire Stock Dealer

We sell the SSAR-15 stocks at our shop. The best opinion I can give you is to use a rifle with chrome lined (not plated) barrel and chamber. Mil-spec rear receiver extensions work best with these stocks. The barrels and the gas tubes will get hot. We put about 1200 rounds through a standard Bushmaster E2S XM15 with no problems other than allowing the rifle to cool (I also unhinged the upper and slid the bolt carrier back). I've put these on and fired them from LE Colts, DPMS, Olympics, Bushmaster, Plum Crazy, Rock River and home builts. I mainly recommend the chrome lined barrels and chambers because it's a lot cheaper to shoot surplus Russian 5.56mm and that stuff is notoriously corrosive.

 

[C-grunt]

You realize that you have a good chance of seriously damaging the rifle this way? The AR-15/M4/M16 is NOT a machinegun. Full auto fire should only be used in short bursts.

 

[TonyAngel]

Extended, high rates of fire and long life are mutually exclusive. You can have one or the other, but not both. That's having been said, I'd use good equipment to ensure as long a life as possible. I'd say that the best barrel available would probably be a Pac Nor, but those run about $500 a pop, so I'd go for either a Bravo Company or Daniel Defense barrel and bolt/carrier group. I'd also get a few extra gas tubes and make sure that you have a steel gas block.

 

[JustinJ]

Its amazing how important some people must think their opinions are that they find it impossible not to bash the OPs plan even after he said those comments aren't welcome.

Anyways, one can get a colt 6920 for around a grand. Any decent piston system is going to be higher dollar but i suppose an Adams Arms on a Colt 6920 should work well for around $1300. Another idea would be the Adams Arms 5.45 upper and base model lower.

I'm not sure what you mean by standard lower? Its my understanding that the slide fire stock will simply replace the stock and i think grip? If so it will work with any lower although pawnshopguru has mentioned that milspec works better. As Sebsastian the Ibis said ammo would be significantly cheaper. 5.45 however does not always feed so well. Really though once you install it on any lower you can swap out uppers all day long.

On the other hand i thought i had heard they are developing one to work with AKs? If so i may be tempted to slap one on my arsenal 74.

 

[Rubber_Duck]

I mainly recommend the chrome lined barrels and chambers because it's a lot cheaper to shoot surplus Russian 5.56mm and that stuff is notoriously corrosive.

pawnshopguru,

Do you realize there is no such thing as corrosive 5.56mm? No corrosive 5.56x45mm ammunition has ever been manufactured in any country. I have no idea why you would think Russian .223 ammo is corrosive unless you have some kind of first-hand experience proving otherwise. Unless you were talking about the 5.45x39mm AK-74 caliber uppers and surplus 5.45 in which case yes it is corrosive, and yes the ammo is very cheap and worth the extra bit of cleaning.


JustinJ,

What benefit will a piston kit bring to the table? Gas piston or DI won't affect barrel life. All it will do is introduce more parts to maintain as well as possible carrier tilt depending on design. I agree with the 5.45x39 upper, if you plan on dumping tons of ammo downrange you can't get any cheaper without going rimfire. Mags/feeding can be hit or miss.

 

[Davek1977]

I mainly recommend the chrome lined barrels and chambers because it's a lot cheaper to shoot surplus Russian 5.56mm and that stuff is notoriously corrosive.

Huh? There is no "surplus" Russian 5.56 ammo. Perhaps you are thinking of 5.45x39, which is a different cartridge altogether from the 5.56x45mm. If you are referring to commercial Russian loads like wolf, bear, golden tiger, etc.....these rounds are neither "surplus" nor "corrosive", just steel cased instead of brass. Either you are confused or weren't clear as to what you meant.

 

[Tirod]

A low post count anonymous question about how to get around the NFA legally and burn up a firearm never designed for continuous full auto fire? And do it with the worst combination possible, a 7.62x39 AR15 with the horrible frankenmags it uses?

Regardless of caliber, it's on the internet, Colt posted video showing how to blow up an M4 in less then ten magazines. All you have to do is try and you'll likely get the same results. The end goal can't be met by the weapon chosen - again, regardless of caliber, or even if a specialty gun using any mag made is chosen. The AR/M4 isn't full auto capable for even a basic load of ammo.

The process of choosing something capable of full auto continous fire needs to be reexamined if the AR/M4 offers a solution. Obviously some decision points relative to what type construction and specific features would be necessary weren't fully evaluated. I'm not talking NFA or such, the real issues are barrel heating, cartridge feeding, and what sustained rate of fire is wanted.

At the minimum, what the Marines just adopted would be necessary. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/06/15/usmc-to-replace-m249-saw-with-m27-iar/

It's not necessarily piston because that's somehow cleaner, it simply adds mass to slow the rate of fire, and offers an adjustable port to compensate for the inherent clogging any gas powered full auto gun suffers.

 

[TonyAngel]

ZYZY, I was thinking. If you are just looking for a toy to go out and tear it up, maybe you should consider something like a CMMG "bargain bin" rifle. I believe that they go for around $500. Then, you can replace parts as it becomes necessary.

I know that I recommended BCM and Daniel Defense above, but after some thought, that may not be the best route to go. Sometimes I take things too seriously, but last night, as I was looking through my safe, I realized that I have a number of guns that have no purpose other than to be fun to shoot.

Like I said, if you just want something that you can run real fast, cheap may be the way to go. You might also want to check out PKFirearms.com. They have pretty good prices on Bushmaster barrels. They are generally what I use when building a beater rifle.

 

[JustinJ]

"JustinJ,

What benefit will a piston kit bring to the table? Gas piston or DI won't affect barrel life. All it will do is introduce more parts to maintain as well as possible carrier tilt depending on design."

Rubber Duck, i mentioned a piston system bc the OP asked about them. I did not say it had an advantage of DI. However, since you asked, there are other reliability factors for an ar besides barrel life which a piston can theoretically improve. Pistons are designed to significantly reduce the amount of hot gases that enter the receiver which can reduce fouling and wear. But yes, there are trade offs so if they are worth it is debateable. Regardless that issue has been rehashed in numerous threads so i think we should avoid the debate so as not to hijack this thread.

 

[Rail Driver]

I put an SSAR-15 on my CMMG (1:7 twist, chrome lined HBAR). I recommend a heavy barrel. I also don't recommend sustaining rapid fire for long (bursts are best) though you can easily dump an entire mag, and I've seen someone dump a 100rd drum. Even in military applications, the M-16 isn't used for sustained fire.

The problem with "full auto" style fire out of a civilian AR-15/M4 clone isn't the equipment, it's the method of use. No firearm is going to last long when fired full auto for long periods of time. Stick to bursts and don't run 4000 rounds through your rifle at each range trip and you should be fine for quite awhile, though you WILL eventually have to replace your barrel, even a chrome lined HBAR.

The 7.62x39 uppers will cycle slower than the 5.56 uppers due to the lower pressure round.

As far as piston vs. DI, with an AR-15 you can put almost any upper on almost any lower so get whatever one you want, just buy your upper and lower separately.

YMMV, this is just MY OWN PERSONAL experience (both from my military service and civilian ownership of several AR-15s with thousands of rounds downrange, as well as current ownership of an AR-15 equipped with the SSAR-15 slidefire stock).

 

[pawnshopguru]

rubberduck,

Was referring to steel cased, lacquer coated, berdan primed Wolf ammo. Corrosive was the wrong word to use. Dirty is better. Especially the lacquer casings. But, it's cheap stuff ($200 per thousand).

 

[Tirod]

Very little of the import stuff uses lacquer now, it's some kind of polymer - which is known to be less of a mess.

 

[Rubber_Duck]

I know Wolf switched to a polymer coating on the cases but the last batches of Brown Bear I shot (62 grain FMJs and 62 gr. HP) were still lacquer coated. Can't speak for other Russian brands as Brown Bear is my favorite plinking ammo when money is tight. And no the lacquer does not melt off in the chamber like some would have you believe.