longeyes
member
And the way things are going the primary thing we will have to sell is our appetite.
We and the Chinese are economically co-dependent.
Delphi's bankruptcy ominous sign for fading auto industry
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And the way things are going the primary thing we will have to sell is our appetite.
We and the Chinese are economically co-dependent.
Not 100% correct. There is still the "perception" that the imports are of far higher quality which is a hard one to fix. They are now, in most segments, of marginally better quality or the same, however if half of the US thinks the imports are far better it's up to the domestics to change that image.
There is a lot of boring going on right now....But, they are forced to do that to avoid short product cycles. How many PT cruisers is D-C selling these days? They were hot for a while, but they didn't have a lot of staying power. When you tool up a plant for production you need to milk that investment or make it flexible, which is what most are doing these days so you can run more than one vehicle in the same plant. However, this increases, to some extent, the complexity and quality problem.
All built with NON UNION labor, no legacy healthcare/retiree costs and 80% of their parts are off shore sourced.
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sumpnz
Member
You say that like its a bad thing. Actually that is the whole point benEzra was trying to make.shoudek said:
And, except perhaps for the big trucks/SUV's, that is different from the Big 3, how?shoudek said:
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
TennTucker, for a given sales price, you can only build so much car. I don't care whether you're talking quality or "features". Think back to what I said about build time in hours per car, for one thing. If you can't change this because of some aspect of a union contract, then what?
For instance, there is a FoMoCo plant at Dearborn which makes the front sub-frame assemblies to which are mounted the front suspensions and front end sheet metal. These are welded. The contract calls for workers being paid by the number of subfreames produced: Piece work. Back when the deal was set up, these were hand-welded. Now, there's a lot of automation in the setup jigs and welding equipment and the time per unit is dramatically reduced. Still, paid for piecework. The AVERAGE take-home pay, per year, for employees at that plant is (per the Time Magazine article) some $106,000 per year. Plus finges and retirement.
When the only way to reduce your costs is outsourcing, you outsource. When you still can't compete in terms of hours, your output can't meet the opposition's quality or features for a given price for the particular niche.
Among other little items about wage competition is the fact that while Germany is a high-paid work force, their tax rate is some 40% of earned income--which is in part how/why the corporations pay less for medical coverage and can to some degree deal with the mandated shorter work weeks and lengthier vactions. (What's commonly not mentioned about all this "free" medical care is that a German ambulance driver has to radio around to find out what hospital has its emergency room open for business.)
Just a few point to show that it's a far more complex problem than most folks figure...
Art
For instance, there is a FoMoCo plant at Dearborn which makes the front sub-frame assemblies to which are mounted the front suspensions and front end sheet metal. These are welded. The contract calls for workers being paid by the number of subfreames produced: Piece work. Back when the deal was set up, these were hand-welded. Now, there's a lot of automation in the setup jigs and welding equipment and the time per unit is dramatically reduced. Still, paid for piecework. The AVERAGE take-home pay, per year, for employees at that plant is (per the Time Magazine article) some $106,000 per year. Plus finges and retirement.
When the only way to reduce your costs is outsourcing, you outsource. When you still can't compete in terms of hours, your output can't meet the opposition's quality or features for a given price for the particular niche.
Among other little items about wage competition is the fact that while Germany is a high-paid work force, their tax rate is some 40% of earned income--which is in part how/why the corporations pay less for medical coverage and can to some degree deal with the mandated shorter work weeks and lengthier vactions. (What's commonly not mentioned about all this "free" medical care is that a German ambulance driver has to radio around to find out what hospital has its emergency room open for business.)
Just a few point to show that it's a far more complex problem than most folks figure...
Art
Monkeyleg
Member.
Art, how do I go about getting one of these jobs? I've never made that much money in my entire life, and I've worked so many 80 to 100-hour weeks that I've lost count.
Monkeyleg said:
That is an interesting question and another problem with the UAW. The UAW also takes care of its own. Get to know one of the UAW rep's and he'll hook you up. Not easy, unless you know someone to get one of these highly paid, low skilled labor jobs. The newest workers don't get paid that much. One of the contract concessions of the last UAW agreement was that newer workers were "initially" on a lower wage rate. I don't recall the time frame, but the first three years sticks in my mind for some reason.
sumpnz
Member
Well, I don't necessarially know about Visteon (though I'd imagine they're similar to Delphi in this respect), but Delphi has more employees overseas than in the USA. In their banckruptcy filing they even mentioned that the foreign units would not be a part of the filing. THat tells me that they're shifting even more work overseas. Tell me again how all their parts are "American".
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
The best way to get into a union local is to have a relative who's already there. No idea if it's changed, but it used to be that getting to know somebody important in a local and dickering over a price could get you in...
Art
Art
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
It's not build quality that turns me off from GM/Ford now; it's design quality. Cadillac is putting out a lot of really good designs, and pared-down Cadillacs sans leather interiors/nav systems/etc. would be very attractive to those of us who can't afford a $45,000 car. BUT, Chevrolet's aren't pared-down Cadillacs, they are warmed-over designs with no passion or imagination. And for a variety of reasons related to branding, I think GM is particularly susceptible to this, but Ford does it too.
I'm sure the Chevy Malibu is a well-built car; the last one I drove certainly was. But it is not a sedan that interests most people who like cars. It doesn't cost any more to tool up to produce an appealing car than to produce an unappealing car...
GM and Ford are using much longer product cycles than the competition (case in point, the Toyota Corolla was completely redesigned 5 or 7 times during the life of the Chevrolet Cavalier, IIRC), and it may be that their labor issues and Byzantine production systems have a lot to do with this.
The sad thing is, even many NEW designs from GM and Ford are boring. The Ford Five Hundred is a very nice car (based on a Volvo chassis, actually, and looks good), except the highest performance version is 0.6 second slower to 60 and 0.5 second slower in the quarter than a 2-year-old Honda Odyssey minivan...
When I was in college, my dream car was a Ford Taurus SHO. Ford doesn't make any driver's sedans anymore, and neither does Chevrolet...
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
benEzra, I certainly can relate to your view about "exciting". Problem is, it's relative. I'm an old hot-rodder/racer, and my notion of excitement begins around 125 to 150. So, today's overpriced stuff is of no interest. Aside from $$$, the styling just doesn't grab me at all.
"Boring" cars are just fine for an aging population. Trouble is, us Old Farts aren't interested in repeat-buying often enough to support those producers.
I'm pretty highly impressed with my full-size GMC pickemup: It's very comfortable on the highway and if I halfway behave myself it gets 20 mpg-- which ain't bad for a 4,500-pound barn-door. And it's a trailer-puller which can double as a four-wheeled motel.
But I wish I still had my Chev-Healey.
Art
"Boring" cars are just fine for an aging population. Trouble is, us Old Farts aren't interested in repeat-buying often enough to support those producers.
I'm pretty highly impressed with my full-size GMC pickemup: It's very comfortable on the highway and if I halfway behave myself it gets 20 mpg-- which ain't bad for a 4,500-pound barn-door. And it's a trailer-puller which can double as a four-wheeled motel.
But I wish I still had my Chev-Healey.
Art
I guess you've not driven the Lincoln LS. It will blow most BMW's out of the water in the handling department. Silly thing is we don't market it much at all. If there ever were a true drivers car the LS is it.
Are you forgetting the new Mustang? Granted not a sedan, but truly a drivers car. Even the new Fusion is a sweet handling car. I think you'll find most of Ford's newer models are all european inspired driver's cars.
Don't go there....it matters very little where the parts are made. What matters is where the profits flow. Visteon profits flow into the US economy and banking system.
AZ Jeff
Member
Amen to that. Lot's of people get all enamored with the fact that Toyota and Nissan make cars in the US. That's great, but.............shoudek said:
1. the major components (high dollar value items) such as the engine and trans still come from Japan
2. the PROFITS go BACK to Japan
I prefer to support my fellow engineers in the US when I buy a vehicle. I KNOW if I buy a Ford, GM, or Chrysler domestic built product, the MAJORITY of the design and development work for the product was done here by my peers.
sumpnz
Member
You know, although I am an engineer, I've never understood that mentality. Why the heck should you buy my crappy product when Igor or Shinji, or Pablo is making a much better product for not a whole lot more and possibly less cost (or even if it's not quite as good it's at a much, much lower cost)? How is that helping me to design a better system, or my company to do a better job at controlling costs. If I design a better system at a lower cost than anyone else, then you should by my system. If I'm more expensive than my competitors, but the quality is the same or worse, what possible motiviation should you have to buy my system. Even if I am able to produce a system cheaper than "them" but the quality is substantially worse to the point that its ultimatly a better deal to buy from them, why should you buy from me?
I'm suprised by all the attention paid to the Mexican wages. That unfair comparison could be made to any business. But other types of US businesses are paying fair wages here in the US and doing well.
A fifty year long union scam has finally drained the cash cow... plain and simple.
Delphi's problem is here not there:
All manufacturing workers(2003): U.S. - $21.97
Delphi Corp. - $65.00 per hour
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
That car is very appealing; I can't imagine why it's not marketed more aggressively...looks like a good competitor to the Cadillac CTS and such. Can you get a manual transmission with it?shoudek said:
Now that you mention it, I do recall reading an article about it a year or so ago.
No, I love the new Mustang; I mentioned it a few posts ago as a shining example that Ford can get it right. If it only had 4 doors (and probably a bit more sound insulation)...I have 2 kids so a 4-door is a must. I think once our kids are older, my wife will probably be looking at a V-6 Mustang in that nifty blue color, with a 5- or 6-speed...
Looks like Ford is turning it around, then. Though I'd want a manual transmission with the V-6, and it doesn't look like you can get that combination at the moment? Or give me a turbo on the 4-cylinder version...
Speaking of turbos...I mentioned the Taurus SHO. I forgot, I actually had two Ford "dream cars" as a teenager and while in college; the other was the Thunderbird turbo coupe, with the 2.3-liter turbo 4 and a 5-speed manual. I drove a family friend's '87 once and fell in love with it. (I never understood why the next Thunderbird was more of a fancy Crown Vic.) The SHO would be more practical w/kids, though.
Yeah my kids limit my choices as well. Which is why I drive the LS. We dropped the manual tranny on it because we weren't selling enough with a manual to justify keeping it around.
Yeah the T-bird was adrift for a while, but the new one took it back to its roots. Its based on the LS platform and it is a real screamer with the V8. It will likely come back at some point in similar fashion to what the present T-bird is.....a really good car if a bit pricey. Manual tranny's are really difficult to keep in the product when you only sell them to niche customers. Its purely a cost decision. In a perfect world you'd be able to get a manual tranny in anything. For my driving habits I'd loathe a manual. I can live with an auto trans, I love the driving dynamics more than the shifting.
AZ Jeff
Member
I guess your side of this arguement depends on an assumption I don't completely agree with: That competitive products made overseas are always superior. While there ARE cases of that, in the auto industry, the quality/value of cards designed in Japan, versus those designed in the US, is for the most part equal.sumpnz said:
Waitone
Member
I sell industrial products to industries like the automotive aftermarket and aerospace. In both cases quality programs illustrated with certifications like ISO and QS are a necessary qualifier to participation. In the US, no qualification results in no business. We are told it is a way to reduce costs and the cost of quality to the enduser. Gotta have quality programs and certs.
Then the outsourcing craze began. Those companies driving the quality programs in the US curiously went silent when sourcing overseas. Yes in some cases programs were implemented and demanded but in a number of highly visible cases quality programs and certs were simply dropped. So as a supplier of US manufacturers I was faced with trying to compete with my quality certs and programs against competitors with drastically reduced costs and no requirements to maintain quality programs. When asked if it reasonable business calculations to do so, I was told price overrules quality. We've discussed on this very thread some of the companies who are conducting business in this manner. Other companies are some of the largest industrial companies in both the US and world, names you would instantly recognize. These attitudes qualify as irrational and in my experience will suffer logical and business consequences.
Then the outsourcing craze began. Those companies driving the quality programs in the US curiously went silent when sourcing overseas. Yes in some cases programs were implemented and demanded but in a number of highly visible cases quality programs and certs were simply dropped. So as a supplier of US manufacturers I was faced with trying to compete with my quality certs and programs against competitors with drastically reduced costs and no requirements to maintain quality programs. When asked if it reasonable business calculations to do so, I was told price overrules quality. We've discussed on this very thread some of the companies who are conducting business in this manner. Other companies are some of the largest industrial companies in both the US and world, names you would instantly recognize. These attitudes qualify as irrational and in my experience will suffer logical and business consequences.
sumpnz
Member
I think you're reading something into my words that is not there. I never said that overseas companies are always superior. I said that if they are superior and the cost is the same or less (note this includes lifetime cost, not just initial purchase) then they should be the ones winning the competition for customers. If any company's product is more costly than the competition's it has to be better by enough of a margin to justify that expense.AZ Jeff said:
It just so happens that in terms of cars, at least the ones that have substantial appeal to me, there is very little to recommend FoMoCo, GM, or Chrylser over Toyota, Honda, Subaru, or even Kia. E.g. Take mini-vans. I've never known anyone who's had a good experience with a Town & Country. I've also heard a lot more bad than good about the Winstar (now FreeStar). OTOH I've heard little but good things about the Odessey and Cienna, and the Sedona is getting really positive reviews. Just in general I've not known hardly any people who had Big 3 cars that have made it anywhere even close to 200k miles, esp. with relatively few problems. I've known plenty of Honda and Toyota owners that have made it to 250k miles with very little more than just the regular PM.
Molon Labe
Member
And this is relevant to firearms because...
Globalization will eventually weaken the American economy leaving us vulnerable to foreign trade sanctions and coercion, not to mention a threat to national security. How is this relevant to firearms? International gun control, what else!
Delphi's bankruptcy is just a small piece of a larger puzzle.
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