Demographics:The Underlying Facts of Violent Crime.

[Atticus]

My old sig line was "statistics are like a bikini - what they reveal is interesting, and what they cover up is crucial."

This is certainly the case here. Undoubtedly there is a huge problem in low income Black and Latino communities, that negatively effects all of us. I think we're seeing the result of a perfect storm - a transitioning economy (good paying blue collar jobs drying up); broken entitlement programs that encourage the break-up of families, while discouraging recipients to earn legal supplemental income; a consumer driven culture that values people by what they own; eroding moral standards -that is likely driven by the erosion of religious faith and practice; a mostly broken inner city public educational system; and the lack of affordable insurance/ health care.
Of those, IMHO the breakdown in the traditional family is the biggest factor, particularly in this economy.
People born and raised at the lowest levels of society, and never see even the slightest possibility of ever getting beyond that, will always be trouble for a society. Throw in a few million illegally owned guns and you see why we have what we have.
I consider myself to be a practicing Republican/Libertarian...but the course this country is currently on, is big trouble -think Fall of Rome. These issues will not be resolved by spending trillions of dollars overseas. We need to get back to fixing this country's problems, and developing a sensible immigration policy.

 

[GTSteve03]

If income and poverty play such a bigger role than race, how come West Virginia, one of the poorest state in the US, is also ranked 36th in violent crime, based on FBI statistics?

Funnily enough, West Virginia is also 96% white.

 

[MakAttak]

Everyone here is all pointing to INDICATORS.

Why do people steal, kill, deal drugs, etc...?

Race will not explain it.

INCOME does not explain it either. (As GTSteve03 just pointed out).

Social structure does not explain it.

Why to people commit crimes? BECAUSE THEY ARE CRIMINALS.

Almost NO ONE in this country is subject to TRUE poverty. (And before you start to impugn my character, I have seen what true poverty is in this country as a large portion of my father's family qualify.) Very few people are stealing food.

As such, people do not become criminals because they are forced to by extreme necessity.

People become criminals because they want things and don't believe they should have to work to get them.

It's that simple. People commit crimes because they think they have a right to those things. People commit crimes because they care only about themselves and their wants.

People commit crimes because they are told over and over how greedy businesses are and how what they have CREATED AND EARNED is just because they rip people off.

People commit crimes because they think if everyone else has it easy, why shouldn't I?

People commit crimes because they think it's how you get ahead.

Why would people think that? Because they are raised to think that. People commit crimes because they have been raised to become criminals.


And wow, this thread has but a TINY connection to guns at this point.

 

[junyo]

If income and poverty play such a bigger role than race, how come West Virginia, one of the poorest state in the US, is also ranked 36th in violent crime, based on FBI statistics?

Yet it consistently rates top 10 as a drug production area, according to the DEA and DOJ.

 

[Oleg Volk]

If income and poverty play such a bigger role than race, how come West Virginia, one of the poorest state in the US, is also ranked 36th in violent crime, based on FBI statistics?
Yet it consistently rates top 10 as a drug production area, according to the DEA and DOJ.

Does that also indicate that drug production of itself doesn't cause crime?

 

[GTSteve03]

Yet it consistently rates top 10 as a drug production area, according to the DEA and DOJ.

And your point is? We're discussing violent crime, not drug production.

 

[junyo]

Does that also indicate that drug production of itself doesn't cause crime?

I'd argue that it does. Left to minimal enforcement levels and a free market there's no reason why drug sales need be violent. Government policy (the War on Drugs) in and of itself creates a certain percentage of the violence.

And your point is? We're discussing violent crime, not drug production.

That's it's convenient to quote how non-violent an area is while knowing that they're a main producer of the source of violence in some other area.

Also, again,that differential enforcement will skew crime figures. If the drug producers in WV were under the same pressure from law enforcement that people in more urban areas are, then the violent crime rates would likely be different.

 

[MakAttak]

Also, again,that differential enforcement will skew crime figures. If the drug producers in WV were under the same pressure from law enforcement that people in more urban areas are, then the violent crime rates would likely be different.

Ah, cops cause crime.

That makes sense!

Without cops, there wouldn't be any crime statistics, thus, no crime!

 

[Atticus]

Does that also indicate that drug production of itself doesn't cause crime?

Or IS a crime?


I used to regularly drive through WV on my way to Virginia. Don't get me wrong, I really like the state, and most of the people are great, but...On the last three trips, I witnessed crimes happen, just in the ten minutes it took to stop and buy gas (one drive away, with a near collision on the State highway; one assault on a spouse; and an altercation between a clerk and a customer). I make sure I have enough gas to cross the state now.
I work with several west Virginians as well; I know that two of them shot people (back home) while defending themselves. WV is hardly a shining example of poor honest people - hell, Jerry Springer would be off the air without WV.

 

[junyo]

Ah, cops cause crime.

That makes sense!

Yeah, no choices that law enforcement have ever made have increased crime. Tell that to the folks in the UK.

 

[fearless leader]

Assualt Drunks

Next time you approach your co-worker, tell him to try on this statistic:

Gun owners per capita, make up less than 0.1% of violent crime.

The other way to say that is 99.9% do not commit violent crimes.
(This isn't sensational so the socialist owned media talking heads won't say it.)

If he wants to talk statical deaths, rather than gun control, drunk driving kills more people in one year, every year, than all the violent crime blamed on gun owners.

Tell him to put a sign on his front lawn announcing that there are no firearms at his residence and see how he sleeps at night.

 

[GTSteve03]

That's it's convenient to quote how non-violent an area is while knowing that they're a main producer of the source of violence in some other area.

Also, again,that differential enforcement will skew crime figures. If the drug producers in WV were under the same pressure from law enforcement that people in more urban areas are, then the violent crime rates would likely be different.

I can't quite tell which side of the argument you're on, but based on your logic, crime due to the drug trade would fall off if the law enforcement officers stopped pressuring the drug users/dealers.

Wouldn't this be a case against the Grand War on Drugs? If so, I'm 100% on your side.

 

[Notch]

Life long poverty has NOTHING TO DO with "how well you get along with people". Suddenly I feel like I am on Arfcom.

 

[Harley Quinn]

W VA was always pretty country and very closet, covert and not many are telling. So it is one that is difficult to put into a box. I'll bet if you went there looking....you may not be found

I was seriously thinking about going and moving to the location. If you can sell me on it. Would I be buying swamp or the real deal. I can see a huge town being the way to go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia

So this might be my choice:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston,_West_Virginia

 

[CrawdaddyJim]

Thomas Sowell wrote an essay on this topic. It is called "Black rednecks and white Liberals". It is a good read and very informative on the whys and wherefores of violence and race, creed, etc.

He postulates that the "Redneck culture" that came to this country is based in the Gaelic tribes and tribal culture in general. That the transfer of behaviour to the blacks in America is due to the fact that they lived in very close proximity to and shared jobs with white rednecks.

Read the essay to get the whole picture. He recites a lot of history from around the 1920's, 30's that points out the policies of Roosevelt and the "Brain trust" were the defacto cause of our current situation with regard to violence and social intolerance.

Also read "The Forgotten Man" by Amity Schlaes. It will shock you in more than a couple of places.

 

[Roman756]

junyo,
It's obvious PC is what you expound best.
Try to understand.Black criminals committing over 50 percent of the nations homocides(and 9 out of 10 blacks are killed by black criminals)are the primary reason the US homicide rate is so skewed per 100,000 people vs crime stats as compared to so many other countries.This with 12 percent of the country's population.
Lester Maddox was a devout Georgia racist.But he said one thing that rang true.
"It's impossible to have law and order when you are dealing with a large sized Negro population".
That was in 1961.Nothing's changed except the date.Get real,junyo.Wyoming is not the only area that has empty spaces.Comprende?

 

[Harley Quinn]

FDR had many advisors and one of them was Joe Kennedy, wow what a guy!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_P._Kennedy,_Sr.

This thread is a good one but we must be careful for sure. Lets keep it "THR"

 

[Baba Louie]

Lack of a strong, intelligent, loving, reponsible father figure might be a factor in figuring out why young men act so irresponsibly with so little respect for females, hard work, good manners and other men their own age who are of like mind. All races, ethnicity, age, doesn't matter.

Grandads are good, Uncles are O.K., but great Fathers who love their children and their children's Mother and are a major part in the raising of family are priceless... and maybe overlooked in today's world.

Not something I've studied, just a gut call. Whadda I know?

 

[Millwright]

Interesting.......Verrrrrryyyyy Interestingggggg......

One reason John Lott has been so maligned by the Left is he is a statistician. But the essential problem is most of the data appearing in the MSM and on line by various groups is applied/intrepreted by 'soft sciences' aka psychology/sociology. Both issue what is essentially subjective opinion as 'facts'......

What's irrefutable is various minority groups are statistically 'responsible' for the majority of crime - gun crime in particular. 'Debatable' are the reasons why this is so. On the "Left" are loads of 'reasons' that basically translate into 'excuses' they cling to. The 'Right' is equally adamant in its claims as well. But, I suspect, the 'truth' lies somewhere betwixt, given every individual, ultimately, is responsible for their own actions. Are they aware of this 'responsibility' ? Not, often, in my experience. Most are seeking to 'use the system' to hang responsibility on someone else ala the Leftist viewpoint. Why ? Because its easy !!! And prison is rife with drones with gravy jobs spoon feeding the 'deus ex machina' pap..... >MW

 

[jahwarrior]

Lester Maddox was a devout Georgia racist.But he said one thing that rang true.
"It's impossible to have law and order when you are dealing with a large sized Negro population".



so you believe that having so many black folks in america is the problem? move to finland.

 

[Roman756]

Take a seat next to junyo,jahwarrior.Look at the numbers.Where is the problem?Blacks.
Next Political Correct Train arriving?

 

[CrawdaddyJim]

It matters not the color of a human's skin. His culture determines his basis for value judgements. His parents determine his fine values.

If you are raised in a tribal culture by incapable parents your chances of becoming CEO of Pepsi is nill. Your chances of spending time in jail is about 3 in 4.

 

[davepool]

Well stated crawdaddyjim

 

[Owen Sparks]

Any where there is a large concintrations of young black men, there will be a disproportionate amount of violence. It doesn't matter if it is the local housing project or the NFL. Income seems to have nothing to do with it.

This may explain why.

http://www.charlesdarwinresearch.org/Race_Evolution_Behavior.pdf

 

[CypherNinja]

I don't dispute the statistics at all. However, I am also a firm believer in the "correlation does not equal causality" mantra.

My pet theory is that the statistics are a coincidental result of history. That if history had gone differently in a big way, the statistics would be different.

The gist is that minorities represent a disproportionate fraction of the lower income class. I believe this provided the breeding ground of gang culture and the illicit drug trade was gas on the fire. If you can understand the phrase "turbocharge" in this context, thats what I mean. This is the problem. Very powerful, very numerous gangs are our primary problem in regard to violence.

I don't mean some kid that listens to rap. I mean the core group. They are not only responsible for a severely disproportionate amount of violence, but I think they also set an example that serves to erode society's concepts of right and wrong. They drag others down with them.

Thats my as-little-politics-as-possible theory, and I'm sticking to it for now.


Now, to bring a little politics into it. I believe things like welfare and high taxes have prolonged and deepened the effect that gave rise to modern gangs in the first place. Also, I believe that gangs are one of the major problems that has resulted in the erosion of our rights in the name of "security". Heavy handed use of SWAT teams being just one of myriad examples, albeit a rather direct one.

Further, I believe this situation is entirely self-inflicted and self-feeding. I think the best way to "pull the plug" would require several changes at once, no partials or half-ways.

• The severe restriction, pullback, or elimination of welfare as well as an accompanying major reduction in taxes to make the breeding ground less fertile.
  
• The elimination of the "Drug War"/Prohibition II. I know this is offensive to most peoples sensibilities, but it didn't work the first time, and if someone is determined to destroy themselves I don't think there is any constructive way to stop them, other than counseling.
  
• Finally, the complete restoration of RKBA. Someone can chose to be victim, but it should never be required. The only feasible way for someone to defend their self is with a weapon. ANY weapon. I don't care if it is a pocket knife, sword, battle axe, pistol, shotgun, rifle, or MG. I don't care what it looks like, or what it does, as long as they are responsible with it. Lack of responsibility is the only thing a weapon owner should ever be punished for. This is the only effective way society can refuse to tolerate violence. Police can only arrive after something has happened. EVER. Even if it's SWAT.

<Patton> Alright you sumbitches, now you know how I feel.</Patton>

There isn't anything else I can say on the subject. That was everything. Now I'm checking out of this thread before it gets locked. I apologize to the mods if I contributed too much to that end, if it comes.

I probably won't even look in this thread anymore. I've said my fill.


IBTL!