Dem's view on the 2nd Amendment: Repeal it.

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'Unfortunately, my friend, a Treaty is on equal grounds with the Constitution'

--- Nope. Treaties bind the government not the people. If the government wants to agree to something than so be it. This has nothing to with the rights of men. I have never heard of someone inside the US being arrested in the US for a treaty violation.
 
Unfortunately, my friend, a Treaty is on equal grounds with the Constitution (Article VI, PP1) and can be made by the President provided that "two thirds of the Senators present concur" (Article II, Section 2, PP2).

The President and Senate cannot enter into any treaty that is not within the scope of the authority of the United States. The Second Amendment specifically prohibits government from infringing upon the right, therefore, it is not within the authority of the president to enter into, and the Senate to consent to, such a treaty.

To the original subject of the thread, I'd rather the Democrats or liberals work to try and eliminate the Second Amendment than infringe upon the right it protects. Repealing the amendment is a battle I believe they could never win. Besides, even if they were successful in repealing the Second Amendment, the right would still exist, and Congress has not been granted power in the Constitution to mess with the right in the first place.

There is also the prospect of the blood bath if they actually tried to disarm the citizens of the United States.

Woody

Though we may still exercise our Right to Keep and Bear Arms after filling out a bunch of paperwork, the real issue is the unconstitutional infringement the paperwork represents. B.E.Wood
 
The title is more than a bit misleading....
A bit maybe. Not much.

Yes, some "Blue Dogs" (including a fellow from Montana who sounds pretty darn staunch) are pro 2-A.

That doesn't change the fact that the party leadership is unaminously VERY anti-2A. Nor does it change the fact that if you look at any grabber bill in recent history, the vote tends to run on party lines.

As an example, when the AWB came up for renewal -
to renew :: 10Rs 1 I, 41D
to let it expire ::42 Rs, 5D

The only reason we DIDN'T get another ten years of the AWB was because (R) Craig pulled his own bill rather than see it turned into a ban. Check the forum logs from that time - we were all HAMMERING our reps at that time to vote the bill down rather than see it pass with Feinstein's poison pill. And thanks be to God and the spirit of John Moses Browning, the message got through. Craig himself gave a speech to the effect of "yes we want this (lawsuit protection bill), but we don't want it at this price. Everyone please vote no on my bill."

If and when the Blue Dogs can effectively put the DNC leadership in their place, and we see the Bigwigs of the party change their tune... THEN I'll happily buy that line Limey.


But I don't think we're gonna see that in this generation. Too many of the 60's radicals need to die off first.

-K
 
Wow. After reading that, I'm so angry I'm actually light headed.

And, well, the U.N. can claim to make my firearms illegal, just the same as the U.S. can, for all I'll care or comply.
 
For which reason, I hereby advance a modest proposal: Let's repeal the damned thing.

"Modest." If repealing the protection granting the most basic and fundamental right known to humanity and all living beings, namely the right to protect one's self, one's family and one's liberty, is "modest" then the explosion of the Tsar Bomba was also modest. [Note: Tsar Bomba means "King of Bombs" and indeed it was - a 50 megaton explosion by the Russkies in the early '60's http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Russia/TsarBomba.html ]

If, on the other hand, the amendment really does as Silberman, Tribe, Amar, and Levinson essentially claim--and I suspect they are all more right than wrong--then it embodies values in which I don't believe.

Witteless is entitled to his views - views, I might add, which are protected by the very Amendment that he seeks to repeal. Nothing in the Constitution or any other U.S. or state law I've ever heard of mandate common sense or intelligence. Of course, even monkeys believe in self-defense, but that's neither here nor there.

I don't believe that the Constitution ought to prevent my hometown of Washington, D.C.--which has a serious problem with gun violence--from making a profoundly different judgment about how available handguns should be than the New York legislature would make for the hamlet near my old camp.

IOW, he doesn't believe in Equal Protection. What would Witteless say if someone else proposed a similar idea about a free press, or freedom of religion, or the ability of people to engage in sodomy? I think that he'd be spitting teeth and bleeding from his eyes in rage.

On a more esoteric level, the Second Amendment's protection for militias reflected the importance the Founders attached to an armed citizenry as a protection against tyrannical government. This made sense at the time. ... After more than two centuries of constitutional government, however, it's safe to assume that neither an armed citizenry nor a well-regulated militia really is "necessary to the security of a free State." The opposite seems closer to the truth; just ask the Bosnians or the Iraqis. And elections, it turns out, do the job pretty well. To put the matter simply, the Founders were wrong about the importance of guns to a free society.

Yeah, elections work so well...just ask those who voted against Herr Hitler in 1933. Look, Witteless, questioning the Founders as a group puts you on pretty shaky ground in my book. No, they weren't perfect, but they had a knowledge of human nature and the nature of power that few other groups in history have EVER had. Their fear that a central government would only grow in power over time IS correct, pretty much anywhere you look. Oh, and even WITH 300 million or so guns in the hands of civilians, the government managed to do Ruby Ridge, Waco, Elian Gonzalez, ignores 70% of the population regarding immigration, strip searches 85-year-old Swedish grandmothers from North Dakota, etc. What, moron, would they do if we were completely disarmed? Dummy, DETERRING TYRANNY is the primary goal of the 2nd Amendment, fighting it only secondary.

But, critically, judges shouldn't be in charge of stripping disfavored rights from the Constitution. If the courts can simply make gun rights disappear, what happens when the First Amendment becomes embarrassing or inconvenient? It corrodes the very idea of a written Constitution when the document means, in practice, the opposite of what its text says. The great beauty of the Constitution is that, unlike, say, the treaties that form the European Union, you can actually read it. You can see how its language embodies principles that still animate the day-to-day operation of American political life. When that is no longer the case, American democracy suffers; it gets unmoored from its source of legitimacy.

Ah, at least a couple of the old neurons are working.

The Bill of Rights is sacred, but it is not so sacred that we should prefer lying to ourselves about what it actually says, rather than changing it as our needs shift.

Uh, I beg to differ. Oh, it isn't sacred in the sense of being the word of the Creator, but it is sacred writ for our nation. You see, without the promise of the Bill of Rights being enacted by the 1st Congress, lots of state legislators (and, likely, whole legislatures) wouldn't have voted to ratify the Constitution in the first place. By my way of thinking, the Bill of Rights - ALL of it, not just selected parts that someone agrees with - is the consideration received by the People in return for ratifying the Constitution. Take away the consideration, and the contract is revoked. I don't think that Witteless wants to go there.

But that doesn't make it less wrong to ask Silberman and his colleagues to relieve the political culture of the obligation of trying.

Could someone with an insight into small minds please interpret that nonsense?

It is certainly easier to pretend that's not what we're doing--that the Founders never created the right

As Silberman made clear, the 2nd Amendment CREATED NOTHING. It simply protected and protects a set of rights (keeping arms and bearing arms) that pre-existed our Republic, rights which are arguably unrepealable (because rights ALWAYS exist - they may be infringed, but they don't cease to exist).

Look, anyone can propose any Amendment to the Constitution. It is, after all, a free country by design. However, I can promise that I will never willingly give up my firearms to any governmental authority if I've done nothing to deserve such treatment. Not as a Jew who's relatives were gassed and cremated after being disarmed, not as an American who's cultural forefathers sacrificed blood and treasure on a scale that we can only imagine to win freedom for us, and not as a human being who values his life, his family and his liberty. Molon Labe!
 
The weapons available today, for one thing, are a far cry from muskets

...and while we are at it let's repeal that pesky 1st Amendment! After all, the internets, television, radio, etc. are a far cry from those simple printing presses!!!! Besides, it's a collective right. Person can only speak his piece if he gets together with the majority of the American population and votes for a formation of the National Voice (the 1A version of the National Guard) to speak for them.
 
Dream, keep on ignoring the "Socialist" and "Workers" parts of the "National Socialist German Workers Party"... Oh, and five minutes in the penalty-box for a Godwin's Law violation.

I'm not ignoring what Nazi is shorthand for -- Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei. The NSDAP is judged by what it did as a cult of personality under Adolf Hitler. The country had very little to do with socialism at that point, so calling the Nazis liberals isn't accurate. As for Godwin's law, I didn't violate it. I didn't whip out Nazi analogies in order to issue insults. I was simply making a point using the fact that communism and socialism had already been brought up numerous times to insult the left. The fact is that such analogies serve no real purpose, but I didn't bring them up. Both sides have problems, not just the "left."

People on the "right" need to stop lumping us all into one boat on the "left." Face facts. This thread has been one, long string of nazi comments, communist comments and other general insults heaped on Democrats. My point was that general insults only anger those Blues that would otherwise stand with you. I accept that the Democratic leadership is overwhelmingly anti-gun. I will openly acknowledge that fact. Does that change the fact that supposedly pro-gun Republicans don't do anything to protect our rights when they're in charge for so long? Many Democrats are openly anti-gun, but it seems to me that at least as many Republican politicians are just anti-gun in the closet.

Let's think about this logically. Republicans, in the last few years, have taken steps to know what you read and watch, what you say in e-mails and on the phone, and make it possible to arrest and detain you without charges for as long as the government wants. If they can violate the 1A, 4A, 5A, 6A, 7A, 8A, why does everyone seem to think the 2nd is above reproach with the Republicans? They've stomped all over the Bill of Rights, and they seem more than willing to fire anyone in the Department of Justice that has a problem with their operating procedures.

I believe in background checks, not registrations. I am not a criminal, and I willingly submit myself to background checks every time I purchase firearms. Why should I have to jump through hoops for the ATF just to own a semi-automatic rifle w/ a short barrel? And why can't I purchase a legal full-automatic rifle made after 1986? Is a post-1986 H&K MP5 somehow more deadly than one made before 1986? It is possible to fight a modern military without modern weapons (USSR v. Mujahideen), but should we let our government handicap us while they OPENLY take steps to take away our rights?

National Firearms Act, Gun Control Act, Firearms Owner's Protection Act, Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act ... plenty of Republicans voted "Yes" on these, and there's been plenty of opportunity to repeal everything that violates our 2A rights. Keep things in perspective. This isn't a Right v. Left issue. It's an American v. Fascism issue, and that crosses party lines, racial lines, etc.
 
DO you guys realize that if Miller was carrying a BAR in 1938 instead of a sawed-off shotgun that the USSC would have overturned that part of the NFA? They fully backed the individual right of the people, as part of the Militias, to provide themselves with and to carry military equipment in common use. Why banning such arms, that these days would include M4s and the like, is a "reasonable compromise" is beyond me.

This case is a favorite cite of the antis, yet they do not even realize what the ruling says. This full-auto part of the NFA was unconstitutional then, and it is unconstitutional NOW. THAT is why the Militia part of the 2nd is so important. My right to keep/bear is no more dependent on being a part of the Miltia then my right to free speech is dependent on being a member of the Press, BUT what I SHOULD be allowed to keep and bear certainly is.


May 15, 1939 the Supreme Court, in a unanimous opinion by Justice McReynolds, reversed and remanded the District Court decision. The Supreme Court declared that no conflict between the NFA and the Second Amendment had been established, writing:

In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a 'shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length' at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument.

With obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such forces the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted and applied with that end in view.

The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. 'A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline.' And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.

The Court indicated that military type arms are constitutionally protected.
 
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