Deny the Holocaust, Go to Jail
- Thread starter Robert J McElwain
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cracked butt
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Anyone who questions the status quo whether it be in art, science, or history should be jailed because they are dangerous people. 
-Rush 'Overture'
-Rush 'Overture'
"Anyone who questions the status quo whether it be in art, science, or history should be jailed because they are dangerous people."
No, anyone who deliberately misrepresents the contents of relevant documents to conform to his sympathetic view of Hitler and his lie that nothing on the order of genocide occurred under Nazi rule is a dangerous person. Particularly in Austria.
No, anyone who deliberately misrepresents the contents of relevant documents to conform to his sympathetic view of Hitler and his lie that nothing on the order of genocide occurred under Nazi rule is a dangerous person. Particularly in Austria.
progunner1957
member
Stupid is as stupid does
But if stupid ideas ae exposed to stupid Sheeple...
First off, who is in charge of defining a dangerous person and secondly, when did it become illegal to *be* a dangerous person? We're all potentially dangerous, especially when we disagree with your viewpoint, apparantly.Web said:
Biker
progunner1957
member
I read a story written by a photographer who went to Auschwitz to photograph the site. He said there were trails that you could walk through the woods surrounding the camp.
While walking these trails, he became aware of the strange texture underfoot of the material the trails were covered with. He knelt down, scooped up some of the material and realized upon close inspection what the material was: Human bone fragments.
There are literally scores of acres of human bone fragments there, where the Death Head SS troops who ran the crematoriums dumped them.
And the Holocaust was made up - yeah, right.
As the saying goes: Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Camp David
member
Biker said:
Biker... the danger herein is sort of obvious, to say the very least... This guy pawned himself off as a 'historian' in Australia... worse he made his statements available in an education setting, therein the 'danger' if you will! While we on this side of the Atlantic have no such punishments for apparent lies; i.e., denial of the holocaust, we should inflict some punishment for those in an academic setting that harbor such views dangerous to youth... and they are out there... I need only mention Colorado professor Ward Churchill and others of his ilk... Freedom of expression is one thing; freedom from stupidity should go along with it!
Malone LaVeigh
Member
Meanwhile, the European press seems to be going out of it's way to insult Moslems under the banner of freedom of the press. I wonder what the Islamic world thinks about this.
lostone1413
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Wether someone believes him or not is irrelevant. He should have the right to say what he wants. Soon you will see the same in this country as far as freedom of speech goes. Soon anyone who questions the action of the government will be labeled a terrorist. Then the wheel are set you can be arrested and not charged denied counsel. If you think he hasn't a right to say that think what can and odds are will happen in this country.
cracked butt
Member
That's for the people in the ivory towers to sort out. They will put him in his place. Best thing to do is allow his work to be out in the open and debated. The Austrian governmentttelling people what they can or cannot think is only a step away from what they are trying to avoid.
Having someone jailed for their thoughts is usually an indictment on the society. If a government has a dogma that is defended not through debate but by intimidation and persecution, the dogma is usually fragile and flawed.
This has been on BBC this week... interesting debate.
Would you feel the same if this 'historian' was teaching in your schools?
I agree in the most part that it's best to let these freaks shout their nonsense loud enough to be publicly refuted and/or ridiculed, censoring drives them underground and gives their message the allure of 'forbidden fruit' to dissafected youth. Look at our own skinhead underground for proof of that.
Jail time? It's still illegal to display a swastika in Germany. Call it survivors guilt, American-forced reparations or whatever. Some of those laws imposed by the Marshall plan--or explained by legal precedence are there to make sure the next generations of former Axis members NEVER forget what they participated in.
Half the programming on the History Channel would be heavily censored in Germany and Austria.
Is it 'right?' I'm not sure. But I sure as hell understand why those laws exist. Maybe when the last allied veterans of WW2, and the survivors of the holocaust pass into the next world, Austria and Germany will choose to strike some of these restrictions down. But I doubt it.
I wouldn't jail the guy. But I sure as hell would let an Austrian cop or two march him around the remains of a death camp pointing out the sights.
Would you feel the same if this 'historian' was teaching in your schools?
I agree in the most part that it's best to let these freaks shout their nonsense loud enough to be publicly refuted and/or ridiculed, censoring drives them underground and gives their message the allure of 'forbidden fruit' to dissafected youth. Look at our own skinhead underground for proof of that.
Jail time? It's still illegal to display a swastika in Germany. Call it survivors guilt, American-forced reparations or whatever. Some of those laws imposed by the Marshall plan--or explained by legal precedence are there to make sure the next generations of former Axis members NEVER forget what they participated in.
Half the programming on the History Channel would be heavily censored in Germany and Austria.
Is it 'right?' I'm not sure. But I sure as hell understand why those laws exist. Maybe when the last allied veterans of WW2, and the survivors of the holocaust pass into the next world, Austria and Germany will choose to strike some of these restrictions down. But I doubt it.
I wouldn't jail the guy. But I sure as hell would let an Austrian cop or two march him around the remains of a death camp pointing out the sights.
LoadAmmo
Member
Bingo.
I think this image aptly describes the revolting hypocrisy of Europe:
Malone LaVeigh said:
I think this image aptly describes the revolting hypocrisy of Europe:
Thain
Member
I'm a historian by personal aptitude and academic trainning, and in the halls of academia this guy has loooong been a sad joke.
"Holocaust Denial" is a trend that professional historians have long been combating. I personally prefer it to be handled by education, academic standards, and not getting the courts or government involved. I'm a Libertarian, after all.
That said, the Anti-Nazi laws in eastern Europe are pretty widly known, and have been on the books since the week after V-E Day!
He broke the law, he got caught, he got convicted. I shant weep.
"Holocaust Denial" is a trend that professional historians have long been combating. I personally prefer it to be handled by education, academic standards, and not getting the courts or government involved. I'm a Libertarian, after all.
That said, the Anti-Nazi laws in eastern Europe are pretty widly known, and have been on the books since the week after V-E Day!
He broke the law, he got caught, he got convicted. I shant weep.
XLMiguel
Member
Actually, the Danes were bieing inclusive. They have made fun of Christians and Jews in political cartoons often in the past, so why not Muslims, too? Part of being a member of a pluralistic society, eh? The lesson Europe might be starting to learn is that one should not be tolerant of the intolerant. :banghead:Malone LaVeigh said:
ezypikns
Member
Someone may know better....
but I don't think there are even Holocaust denial laws in Israel. I believe the only place those type of laws are in effect are former parts of Hitler's Reich (Germany and Austria). Maybe those folks need to be reminded of their history. From what I understand, there are many young Austrians and Germans who think this whole Holocaust thing was tremendously overblown.
How can the murder of 6 million people be "overblown"?
Odd though, that an Englishman was convicted of breaking Austrian law.
but I don't think there are even Holocaust denial laws in Israel. I believe the only place those type of laws are in effect are former parts of Hitler's Reich (Germany and Austria). Maybe those folks need to be reminded of their history. From what I understand, there are many young Austrians and Germans who think this whole Holocaust thing was tremendously overblown.
How can the murder of 6 million people be "overblown"?
Odd though, that an Englishman was convicted of breaking Austrian law.
telomerase
Member
Governments killed about 200 million people during the 20th century, NOT COUNTING WARS or FDA regulations. Ukrainians, Cambodians, Armenians, etc. etc. etc. might all feel a bit left out when "the holocaust" is presented as a uniquely Jewish experience.
BTW, I think that idiot should definitely be allowed to talk. No one says you have to listen.
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
The vast majority of European newspapers have not reprinted the cartoons.
If Muslims choose to feel insulted, that's their right. They should vote with their advertising budgets and assorted other forms of purchasing power if they choose to stay in Europe, or else go home and start riots.
CAnnoneer
Member
ezypikns said:
Yes, but then again playing the works of Richard Wagner is forbidden in Israel. Makes you wonder.
It can be, if taken out of context. In the same war, the Soviet casualties were 27 million, German casualties were 10.5 million. The Nazis also killed millions of slavs and jipsies, and torched 628 Ukrainian and Belorussian villages with their residents burnt alive. On the other hand, the Soviets returned some of the favor when they first entered German soil in East Prussia...
Somehow you never hear about the other victims in the same period. Why is that?
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Robert J McElwain said:
Just curious, do you also object to other laws that are in conflict with the US Consitution, but are occuring in countries that do not have the same rights as the folks in the US? Do you object to Americans doing things that are in conflict with the laws of other countries?
Robert Hairless
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CAnnoneer said:
Much more puzzling is why you say that you never hear about the other victims in the same period when you evidently have heard about the other victims in the same period. Why is that?
The law itself does not have to come to this country through the legislature; it is already here by treaty. For example the State of Israel is permitted to persue, detain, remove or assassinate anyone deemed an enemy of the State of Israel - by the State of Israel. Not that the government of the State of Israel is unique in this regard, but they have a history of doing such things, and for our government to expose citizens of the United States - especially in our own jurisdictions - to the arbitary summary actions of a foreign government is a crime of the highest order.JJpdxpinkpistols said:
Under the continuing growing global behemoth, "anti-terror" legislation in many countries already declares a pile of otherwise fairly mundane statements and acts to be "acts of terrorism". The continuing mad drive towards "international co-operation" in the "war on [a noun]" seems to be shaping up to where the government agencies of any one country can bypass the legal and judicial process of another and "deal with" anyone they deem "a terrorist".
Whatever anyone thinks of Irving, the fact is the so-called Holocaust was less than that suffered by those targeted by the Bolsheviks and what has been ongoing in China since the late 1940s. Yet it seems to ride more on reputation than anything else; which is repeatly rammed down peoples' throats.
This may explain the efforts of a number of people who have attempted to give it a thorough dig. What is not explained by any past sufferings is it's promoters vehement adversity to any such dig.
None of these atrocities have been thoroughly and completely chronicled. But I see little in the way of obstacles to digging around that which happened in Russia or China from a European or American perspective - even if the Chinese and Russian governments might prefer to let sleeping dogs lie. While the relentless pursuit of "Nazis" and "nazi gold" persists to this day - I have yet to see a single effort on the part of our own government or Europa to bring to justice those surviving perpetrators of the slaughter, torture and brutal incarceration of the millions of victims of the Bolshevics and Red Chinese.
Not one.
This is false; a great number no doubt refused to believe it. Just as a great number no doubt were astounded and responded with disbelief when they first heard about the Tuskegee medical experiments which continued until 1972 right here in the USA for example.
Most people are sceptical when some awful accusation is laid against people they have trusted. But to say that "most Germans and Austrians did not believe it" is false.
At least five people in my family tree died in Austria - and yes, I believe it. But I would like to see a good thorough dig all the same, and nothing but facts backed by scientific evidence after open investigation by as many people as wish to take part.
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shootinstudent
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LAK,
I posted this on the other thread, you might want to read through it: www.nizkor.org
There is a website that actually corresponded with Irving himself, and that is dedicated to compiling evidence of the holocaust.
I posted this on the other thread, you might want to read through it: www.nizkor.org
There is a website that actually corresponded with Irving himself, and that is dedicated to compiling evidence of the holocaust.
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
Irving is stupid piled upon stupid. He could have kept saying the Holocaust didn't exist all he wanted at home. But no, that was not sufficient. He had to spout this bile for years and then take a vacation in Austria. How'd that turn out?...Not too good.
He asked for it and he received it. He wasn't kidnapped. He voluntarily exposed himself to arrest, trial, and imprisonment by his own wilful, compounded stupidity.
He stupidly chose to enter Austrian jurisdiction.
He's a Darwin award waiting to happen.
I only regret that family members of mine will have to pay taxes to feed this piece of trash for three years.
Sure, you've got freedom of speech. But sometimes, in the interests of self-preservation, it might behoove one to exercise self-restraint. Depending on what one says to an ill-chose person one might find oneself exercising the right to spit out teeth. The Austrians and Germans are a mite sensitive over the subjects of Naziism and the Holocaust. I don't blame them.
Lak, seeing as how any true Bolsheviks took part in the 1917 Revolution, it might be just a bit hard to bring any of them to justice after 89 years, don't you think? Even a fifteen year old Boshevik would be a 104 years old today. If any are still alive, I doubt they know who they are. Anyway, exactly how do you propose to bring any Russian or Chinese Communist to justice? Exactly what legal mechanism do you think could be used? Seeing as how there is absolutely no legal mechanism existing to bring them to justice your outrage over no one trying is completely meaningless. All no one trying means is that everyone except you realized there was not a way to accomplish the matter.
He asked for it and he received it. He wasn't kidnapped. He voluntarily exposed himself to arrest, trial, and imprisonment by his own wilful, compounded stupidity.
He stupidly chose to enter Austrian jurisdiction.
He's a Darwin award waiting to happen.
I only regret that family members of mine will have to pay taxes to feed this piece of trash for three years.
Sure, you've got freedom of speech. But sometimes, in the interests of self-preservation, it might behoove one to exercise self-restraint. Depending on what one says to an ill-chose person one might find oneself exercising the right to spit out teeth. The Austrians and Germans are a mite sensitive over the subjects of Naziism and the Holocaust. I don't blame them.
Lak, seeing as how any true Bolsheviks took part in the 1917 Revolution, it might be just a bit hard to bring any of them to justice after 89 years, don't you think? Even a fifteen year old Boshevik would be a 104 years old today. If any are still alive, I doubt they know who they are. Anyway, exactly how do you propose to bring any Russian or Chinese Communist to justice? Exactly what legal mechanism do you think could be used? Seeing as how there is absolutely no legal mechanism existing to bring them to justice your outrage over no one trying is completely meaningless. All no one trying means is that everyone except you realized there was not a way to accomplish the matter.
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