Deputy cleared in drug raid shooting... Clean shoot or not?

[squire]

I'd like to hear both LEO's and non LEO's thoughts on this issue.


ST. PETERSBURG - State Attorney Bernie McCabe has cleared a sheriff's deputy of any criminal wrongdoing in the April 12 shooting of an unarmed man during a drug raid on his home.
Cpl. Christopher Taylor acted in the "legal performance of his lawful duties" when he twice shot 19-year-old Jarrell S. Walker, McCabe stated in a six-page report released Monday.

Walker refused to obey Taylor's repeated commands to remain still and show his hands, according to the report. Walker's "extremely poor judgment" forced Taylor to shoot him, McCabe said.

"(Walker's) actions, whether intended to locate and retrieve a weapon, find and discard evidence, or simply his lack of fear and respect for the deputy, caused Corporal Taylor to believe that his life and safety were at risk," McCabe wrote.

Wanda Walker called McCabe's findings in the shooting death of her son a "cover up."

"It's not a surprise and it's not over," she said Monday. "He cannot justify shooting an unarmed man. My son did not have a gun. He was not reaching for a gun."

Walker's family said he was asleep when members of the SWAT team burst into the home and posed no threat.

According to McCabe's report, the shooting unfolded this way:

Eight members of the Pinellas County sheriff's SWAT team, including Taylor, burst into the house on 16th Avenue S just before 9 p.m. to execute a narcotics search warrant.

Taylor encountered Walker, who was lying on a couch, and ordered him to lie down on the floor. Walker slid off the couch and lay on his left side. His left hand was under the skirt of the couch.

Taylor yelled at Walker to show his hands. Walker reached his right hand into his pants, then removed it and patted under the couch again. He then reached his hand back into his pants and then again back under the couch.

Taylor stepped forward "lightly striking Walker on the shoulder with his foot to ensure Walker" knew he was talking to him, the report stated. Walker made eye contact with Taylor and then quickly began to pull his right hand out from under the couch.

Taylor knew that during an earlier drug raid on March 15, St. Petersburg police recovered a semiautomatic pistol from the couch area, the report said. He feared Walker was about to pull a gun, so he shot him twice, the report said.

No weapons were found near the couch. A pistol was found in another part of the home.

In his report, McCabe acknowledged the rift between law enforcement and some residents in the black community.

"This is another relatively young black male who has met his death at the hands of law enforcement in Pinellas County," McCabe noted.

On May 2, 2004, two Pinellas County sheriff's deputies shot 17-year old Marquell McCullough a combined 15 times as the black teenager tried to flee in a pickup truck. The deputies, who believed McCullough was involved in a drug deal, were cleared of any wrongdoing.

Read the rest here: http://www.sptimes.com/2005/05/03/Southpinellas/Deputy_cleared_in_dru.shtml

 

[insidious_calm]

Good shoot IF it went down as described. The deputies were already clearly identified. I'd like to know if they recovered any drugs though, including the previous raid. I wish we could convince these people to fight the war on drugs in a way it can be won. The death toll would be a lot less.


I.C.

 

[nico]

^^^ what he said. It sounds like he was looking for a gun that just didn't happen to be there. I'd be curious to hear whether any drugs were recovered too.

 

[DMF]

Taylor encountered Walker, who was lying on a couch, and ordered him to lie down on the floor. Walker slid off the couch and lay on his left side. His left hand was under the skirt of the couch.

Taylor yelled at Walker to show his hands. Walker reached his right hand into his pants, then removed it and patted under the couch again. He then reached his hand back into his pants and then again back under the couch.

Taylor stepped forward "lightly striking Walker on the shoulder with his foot to ensure Walker" knew he was talking to him, the report stated. Walker made eye contact with Taylor and then quickly began to pull his right hand out from under the couch.

Taylor knew that during an earlier drug raid on March 15, St. Petersburg police recovered a semiautomatic pistol from the couch area, the report said. He feared Walker was about to pull a gun, so he shot him twice, the report said.

Assuming the news story is accurate, then the answer to your question seems obvious.

 

[Infidel]

Taylor stepped forward "lightly striking Walker on the shoulder with his foot to ensure Walker" knew he was talking to him, the report stated. Walker made eye contact with Taylor .... He feared Walker was about to pull a gun, so he shot him twice, the report said.

Deputy Taylor needs some serious remedial training. He was close enough to kick the guy, and he never saw a weapon, just got all scared and shot the guy. It doesn't merit charges against the deputy, but he was wrong to shoot.

 

[Vernal45]

"(Walker's) actions, whether intended to locate and retrieve a weapon, find and discard evidence, or simply his lack of fear and respect for the deputy, caused Corporal Taylor to believe that his life and safety were at risk," McCabe wrote.

I dont need to comment on that.

It doesn't merit charges against the deputy, but he was wrong to shoot.

If he was wrong to shoot, why does it not warrant charges??? Is that some sort of liberal logic double speak?

 

[VARifleman]

I'm leaning closer to no on this one for the reason that Vernal pointed out. I'd like to know the man's BAC at the time as well. I do not trust a cops judgement to know what kind of state this guy is in.

 

[Arc-Lite]

I am not going to second guess anything... a team of 8 SWAT members, someone should hook this kid up first

 

[insidious_calm]

sigh.


Yeah, you NEVER wanna second guess a swat team. It's not like they're mortals or anything.


I.C.

 

[DMF]

Deputy Taylor needs some serious remedial training. He was close enough to kick the guy, and he never saw a weapon, just got all scared and shot the guy.

Read again the hand was under the couch. If he waits for the guy to pull his hand out AGAIN. This time it may have come up with a weapon. He didn't need to see a gun, the guy was acting in a manner that a reasonable officer could perceive as a deadly threat. If there had been a gun under there, and he had waited until he actually saw it, the badguy would have most likely gotten off the first shot.

 

[beerslurpy]

The cops in St Pete are known for doing stuff like this, and worse.

It isnt just some outlandish coincidence that south st pete has riots every couple of years. Its basically an ultra-poor, ultra-crime-ridden black neighorhood, and the cops behave as you would expect cops to behave in such a neighborhood. They behave like they dont want to be there and they dont want to be killed or injured for want of shooting potentially hostile <insert a 6 letter word for poor black people that comes up more often than you would expect in conversations about that area>.

And I'm sure you can imagine the way good cops distinguish themselves in that neighborhood... they transfer out. What left is a combination of medicore cops, tons of poor people and a good dose of drug dealing and old fashioned criminals thrown in as well. That doesnt excuse the police's behavior by a long shot, but bad things are going to continue to happen in that neighborhood for a long time.

 

[DMF]

. . . someone should hook this kid up first

You've got to be kidding me. [SARCASM]Sure I'll just put my gun away, and get out my cuffs to go hands on with a guy who's reaching into his pants,and under a couch (possibly to get a weapon). [/SARCASM] I try not to cuff someone until I get them under control. If the fight's on, and you absolutely have to cuff someone who is non-compliant so be it, but the best procedure is get them controlled then cuff.

 

[Infidel]

If he was wrong to shoot, why does it not warrant charges??? Is that some sort of liberal logic double speak?

OK, maybe he does need to be charged. I think he needs at the very least some serious disciplinary action and remedial training. That's assuming that his Sheriff thinks that he is salvagable as an LEO, which might not be the case. His serious lack of judgement and control doesn't necessarily rise to the level of a chargeable crime, but he should not have shot the guy.

And no, it's not any sort of liberal anything, nor is it double-speak, but it is a more advanced concept than name-calling and posturing.

He didn't need to see a gun, the guy was acting in a manner that a reasonable officer could perceive as a deadly threat.

Well, I don't see any reasonable perception of a deadly threat. I see cause for physical action, but not shooting. But then, I'm just a reasonable citizen, not a JBT apologist.

 

[DMF]

. . . or simply his lack of fear and respect for the deputy, caused Corporal Taylor to believe that his life and safety were at risk . . .

I'll comment. What McCabe is referring to is called a pre-assault indicator. When a suspect won't comply with lawful commands, especially one who is faced with this kind of force, it's a sign they are preparing to attack.

 

[Vernal45]

Taylor knew that during an earlier drug raid on March 15, St. Petersburg police recovered a semiautomatic pistol from the couch area, the report said. He feared Walker was about to pull a gun, so he shot him twice, the report said.

So either a time warp was in place, of Taylor is psychic.

Speaking as an EX LEO, still licensed, it seems Taylor ASSUMED way to much. Remedial training is not needed, his beinf fired is. Taylor did not see a gun. Where was the threat? Sounds like a cop, with case of ITCHY TRIGGER FINGER!

 

[Vernal45]

I'll comment. What McCabe is referring to is called a pre-assault indicator. When a suspect won't comply with lawful commands, especially one who is faced with this kind of force, it's a sign they are preparing to attack.

OKKKKK, now we go from reacting to a REAL Threat (which is what an LEO should be trained to do), to Thought police. Able to read the mind of the suspect and react before the suspect can act on the thought he had that the Police read from his mind......interesting.

Read again the hand was under the couch. If he waits for the guy to pull his hand out AGAIN.

And if he pulled it out, and gun was there, by all means shoot. But a weapon was not there, so where was the imminent threat of death? maybe this would be a good training episode of the RIGHT time and incident to employ a Taser.

 

[Infidel]

Sounds like a cop, with case of ITCHY TRIGGER FINGER!

Exactly. And Scared.

 

[Vernal45]

I would also like to know the Experience level of the LEO>

 

[Sir Aardvark]

In San Diego about 10 years ago a homeowner was shot and killed by a sheriff's deputy during a drug raid. The homeowner was a very wealthy individual and his home was a small ranch. He was drunk at the time of the raid and confronted the deputy while holding a .44 caliber handgun, most likely thinking he was confronting a burglar.
It was later found that there were NO drugs at his ranch and that the information used to establish cause for a warrant to be issued for the raid was fraudulent. The investigation also concluded that the underlying reason for the raid was so that the sheriff's department could seize this guy's million dollar ranch as "Drug Booty/Contraband" and keep whatever money it was worth.
Stories similar to this, which there are a lot of, are what leaves a bad taste in my mouth about 'THE WAR ON DRUGS' and overzealous police agencies who place a higher value on getting CA$H for their departments than they do on human life and our supposedly inaliable rights.

 

[DMF]

Vernal he's not psychic, or a mind reader. He also doesn't need to see a gun to perceive a credible threat. The TOTALITY OF CIRCUMSTANCES, the suspect's non-compliance, reaching under the couch, prior knowledge of the suspect had a gun, prior knowledge that the supect had a gun under the couch, etc, all combine to tell that officer that there is a credible threat. If you really were a cop, you should know this. TOTALITY OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES and a REASONABLE OBJECTIVE OFFICER's perception of those circumtances are how use of force is judged. Reference the decisions Graham v. Conner and Tennesse v. Garner. Again, if you were a cop this should have been covered in your training.

As many here can tell you action beats reaction. If there had been a gun under the couch, and the deputy had waited to see the suspect pull it out, the deputy would likely have been shot. This kind of case is NOT new, and if you were a cop, similar cases should have been discussed in your training.

 

[Vernal45]

Taylor knew that during an earlier drug raid on March 15, St. Petersburg police recovered a semiautomatic pistol from the couch area, the report said. He feared Walker was about to pull a gun, so he shot him twice, the report said.

prior knowledge of the suspect had a gun, prior knowledge that the supect had a gun under the couch,

NO, prior knowledge of a gun found under the couch. Nothing in the article stated that the Officer KNEW the suspect had a gun, he just knew that a gun had been found under the couch in a previous raid.

If there had been a gun under the couch, and the deputy had waited to see the suspect pull it out, the deputy would likely have been shot.

SWAT deputy, already has his gun out, eyes on subject. Subject has to reach under a couch, to maybe pull a gun. And if he did pull a gun, you are telling me a TRAINED SWAT OFFICER, with gun at the ready, would not have time to employ that gun...

 

[El Rojo]

Here is my personal theory on the state of police work. Back in the old days, if someone gave a cop crap, the cop beat the crap out of the person. Yet the person got to live to see another day and maybe learn not to screw with cops.

Fast forward to the present. After Rodney King, no one wants to really beat on a person anymore. You also have less brute force cops and more variety in police work. Women and smaller guys. So if there is a question and you are a smaller cop and you don't want to get accused of beating someone, you have pretty much no choice but to shoot them. Afterall, if you get in a scuffle and lose your gun, you could die! It happens all the time. Listen to where people walk at cops and don't follow directions, the cops shoot them. Back in the old days, you just club them silly and the defiant person lives!

So where I am going with this is if he could lightly kick the guy in the shoulder, why not just squarely plant your steel toed, tactical boot into the side of this guy's head with tremendous force? I would bet the guys hands would immediately come out from under the couch and go straight to his head. Even if he had a gun in his hand as it comes out from under the couch towards his head, he probably isn't going to be in a hurry to shoot with the shooting pain going on in his ear drum and the side of his head. And all of this is assuming the guy is still conscious from the boot to the head.

So my theory, let cops beat the crap out of defiant subjects again. Screw Rodney King and let em wack away. It beats shooting people.

 

[DMF]

Vernal I think you need an English lesson. Had, as in past tense. Referring to his knowledge that in the past the suspect had a gun, and was known to hide it under the couch. Meaning, that contributed to his fear the suspect was reaching for a gun under the couch.

Also, yes, I am telling you that action beats reaction even in this case. It's called the OODA loop. Do some research on it. If the suspect has already begun his action to attack, the officer has to observe the action, orient to that (meaning try to determine what that action means to him), decide how to respond, and act himself. This process occurs quickly, but if the suspect is already in action mode the officer is behind in his OODA loop. Any encounter is continuous repitition of OODA loops for all parties invovled, but the first person to act is at the advantage, because it usually means the other person is forced to react, and is behind in the encounter.

Again, if you were a cop, and had studied use of force, including perception of threats, and reaction times, this should be information you already know.

 

[Vernal45]

10 years experience LE, military and civillian plus a few more with states attorney general office, I Understand OODA. Does not preclude the officers responsibilty under law, to comply with statutory law when employing deadly force. An anticipated threat of deadly force, prior to the exhibition of deadly force does not justify the use of deadly force by the officer.

Contrary to popular belief, an officers responsibility to serve and protect also applies to suspects. Like it or not, this is what an officer signs up for.


Pre-assault indicator, that is BS. That give a cop, unlimited power. All he has to do is lie that he was in fear of his life.

 

[Art Eatman]

Vernal, I'm no LEO. I will say that at my age I'm not real excitable about violence. I've seen a bunch of it over the decades.

But if a guy ignores orders and fumbles around like he's hunting for a weapon that apparently isn't where he thought it was, I don't assume he has my best interests at heart. Per the report, Walker appeared to be trying to find a weapon.

You have the choice of playing Hollywood western movie and letting the bad guy have the first shot, or you can figure maybe you want to get home to the wife and kids.

It's the same old deal I've been hearing or reading about since fifty years gone: A cop makes a split-second decision and the second-guessers play what-if for the next several months.

Who knows? Maybe Walker wasn't a TV watcher. Never watched cop shows. Hadn't learned about what happens when a swat team goes to yelling, "Get on the floor!" and all that. Didn't know about adrenalin and testosterone and fear.

Ignorance ain't bliss.

Art