Derringers - Any practical value or just a range toy?

[Slamfire]

So in early 1983 I walked into a friend's gun shop and asked to see a Remington 1871 he had. Knowing I tend toward service pistols and military rifles he asked why I was interested.

Now I am talking about the over under layout, single action pistols "as seen on TV" as a hide out gun a in bijillion '50's and '60's "Cowboy shows". I must have had half a dozen toy versions during those times including one mounted on a spring loaded device that went up a shirt sleeve like I think the TV Bat Masterson had at one point. I even had a plastic water pistol version of one during the great high school Junior Class water gun fight that lasted a couple of weeks that spring (Can you imagine 16 year olds ambushing one another and sniping the occasional teacher with semi realistic water pistols in the halls of public schools today?)

I explained that I wanted to compare an original.41 Rim Fire to the German .38 Special I had been carrying.

He suggested that I bring the "modern" .38 in so he could weld it shut. Said it might make an interesting shadow box display piece.

I was appalled and said so and he then offered to weld it open for free as well.... for use as a sinker while fishing for sea cats out in the bay.

There followed tales of horror about dropped derringers, snagged derringers, and "slipped" derringers during which the gunshop owner owned up to a dropped derringer discharge that blew off a boot heel and really tick off his wife, another customer when called a BS'er dropped his pants and showed the scar from his dropped derringer (seriously, he did) and a third customer insisted ZZTop had not made a record in a while because a member was shot in the gut by a dropped Derringer.

I called them all old fools. I unloaded and brought in my derringer which I had initially left in the car and we all looked it over and the gunshop owner ( an actual smith) showed me all that could go wrong. Having carried the thing a year successfully I again called them old fools for being "afraid of a mechanical object"

My buddy was driving that day and I left the shop in the passenger seat with an empty derringer. The only mechanical safety on those things was the half cock. As we headed around the belt way I retrieved my two hard cast DEWC hot loaded rounds and popped open the Derringer while on half cock, loaded it, closed the barrels and locked it and pulled the hammer back a bit to cycle the barrel selector....and slipped the hammer. Not ten minutes from calling folks old fools I had proved myself a young one.

The bullet struck the driver's car door, shattered inside and the report in a closed car was rather loud. That would have been enough to teach me my lesson….passing through my left hand striking the bones that support the little and ring fingers of the left hand was really not necessary as a teaching point. The "hamburger" and blood splatter across the dash and windshield was a true attention getter. Who knew you could see arterial bleeding that far down stream?

At the hospital they wanted to immediately amputate at least the pinky finger back to the wrist. They told me both impacted bones were "like chewed up tooth picks" and the ER doc was very anti gun.

I had them stablize the wound and sought another opinion. I went to the ER in my VA hospital almost three hours drive away from where I had folks wanting to cut and am very glad I did. New set of x rays showed not even broken bone, much less chewed up tooth picks. Also original ER wanted to do a resection (cut from entrance to exit to get access to the wound channel which was pretty much the standard for GSW to an extremity in those days) and the young doc at the VA had worked under Dr. Martin Fackler (yes the gel shooting guy) in Vietnam and was VERY confident in Dr. Fackler's technique of treating such wounds with out cutting.... think cleaning rod and patch three times a day until the wound closes... yes it hurt like you think....times 3....and took over six weeks.

I was told the fingers would not function and that amputation might still be on the table to prevent a nerve dead pinky from getting caught in stuff and amputated in an uncontrolled manner.

They were wrong as the fingers work and have feeling and are strong. The hand does dang near everything it could...and warns of approaching rain storms...

Just a couple of years after the stupidity (not an acciedent, just me being stupid) I met Dr. Fackler when he retired moved to our area and joined our gun club. I thanked him for his medical research work profusely.

I ended up doing some of the number crunching for the great Fackler verses Marshall and Sanow "debates" and played with rifles and shotguns with him a few years. For a bit he showed off a balloon that had been struck by a .45ACP and not popped, demonstrating his argument that pistol bullets did not cut every tissue they went by... that was a balloon I shot in a club competition he was at.

Any how....The Derringer? I still have it. Used it in handgun and general firearms safety courses and with the exception of two Speer plastic bullets around 1992 the gun has had only primerless and powderless dummy rounds loaded in it since "the event"

I am a lot more muzzle conscious, especially with short barreled guns, and I do not recommend traditional derringers to folks.

If you just have to have a Derringer just remember a lot of "old fools" recommend you find something else.

an embarrassed
-kBob

Great story, and you know, I never read warnings about Derringer's or their accidental discharges in the popular press, even though, you know the editor had have been receiving lots of letters from individuals with similar experiences. This is another reason why cutting out the middle man, and being able to read other's actual experiences, has been so helpful.

And, it is always worth getting a second opinion in a medical matter. My brother in law was told at the VA hospital that he was stage 4 cancer based on some scan. They wanted to operate on him immediately. He got a second opinion. What was on the scan was not cancer, or anything bad at all. The experience of being told he was terminal was traumatic enough that he is still angry over this.

 

[ThomasT]

Do not confuse lethality with defensive effectiveness.

One difference is the time it takes for an assailant to cease to constitute an immediate threat.

All rounds have worked and all rounds have failed. I know one man who killed a robber in his gas station with a 25 auto before he could make it across a very small room with a knife. I knew another woman who worked in a bar who loaned a second girl a 22 short derringer and she killed one of the customers with it firing one shot to the chest.

And these rounds are at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to SD. But they still are better than nothing. And thats about it. The man who shot the robber stopped after being No Billed by the grand jury and bought a 357 magnum that he ended up using on two other robbers and the girl with the 22 shot spent 5 years in prison for accessory to murder.

 

[Kleanbore]

And these rounds are at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to SD. But they still are better than nothing. And thats about it

Unless one acts on the basis of a false sense of security

 

[theotherwaldo]

One of my distant cousins was a coroner for the City of Los Angeles.
Weird guy, he liked to talk about his work.
One thing that amused him greatly was the number of people that were shot by small caliber pistols and died... eventually.
-And all of the things that happened before that person died... .

 

[Fyrstyk]

Ill repeat myself, "Any gun is better than no gun at all."

 

[ThomasT]

-And all of the things that happened before that person died... .

You don't happen to remember any of those stories do you?

 

[toivo]

If you need to go small look at a Beretta Jetfire in .22 or .25 ACP or a Bersa Thunder in .22 LR.

I love Jetfires. The Bersa .22 Thunder, however, is built on the same frame as the .380 Thunder. It's Walther PP-sized -- a good bit larger than a Jetfire or a derringer.

Look instead for a Taurus PT-22 or PT-25, which I believe are no longer made. Neither is the Jetfire, for that matter.

 

[Kleanbore]

Ill repeat myself, "Any gun is better than no gun at all."

One important question is, "how much better, and is it likely to be adequate?"

Another is, "might the defender be better oof not relying upon it"?

And another: "might there not be a much better alternative"?

Sorry, but "any gun is better than no gun at all" says little for the derringer.

 

[GEM]

PT-22s and other very small 22s (including the Berettas) can be very unreliable. There are better small center fire guns nowadays.

 

[toivo]

PT-22s and other very small 22s (including the Berettas) can be very unreliable. There are better small center fire guns nowadays.

But the mini Taurus and Berettas were available in .25 also -- a wimpy cartridge, true, but much more reliable than rimfire.

 

[TTv2]

One important question is, "how much better, and is it likely to be adequate?"

Another is, "might the defender be better oof not relying upon it"?

And another: "might there not be a much better alternative"?

Sorry, but "any gun is better than no gun at all" says little for the derringer.

How much better is a derringer than no gun at all? Even with all the drawbacks of a derringer, one can still be effective with it out to 7 yards, which is the difference between a schizo homeless bum dropping at your feet vs them being on top of you screaming "REPTILIAN DEVIL!!!"

I said it earlier, but a lot of what gives or potentially gives a derringer any practical value is based on price and performance. Bonds are not practical, they're probably the least practical of all derringers, but Cobra and Cobray/Leinad... they're cheap enough and shoot big enough calibers (.38 and .45) to be worth consideration if you cannot afford a gun over $150 in price or if you happen to come into possession of one and you cannot afford anything more than $50.

You do raise extremely good questions as to the validity of derringers tho. How much better is a derringer vs no gun and is it adequate? I'll say they can be adequate if the shooter can put the bullet where it needs to go, but the difficulty of doing so and lack of practice the shooter will have likely had beforehand are such negative factors that it's very probable the defender may be better off not relying on a derringer and would be better off with something like pepper spray or a really bright flashlight.

The more we discuss this topic on derringers, the more I feel this is a video Paul Harrell ought to do.

 

[unclenunzie]

Practical or range toy: In today's world, I think it is already established the derringer design has practical/defensive value below that of modern small pistol and revolver designs. I started with pocket size micro pistols and have both front and back pocket holsters for several of them. I think this is the practical use zone in which a derringer fits, but as said I'd rather go with one of them such as a P32 or RM380 or the venerable P3AT/LCP designs.

At one time I considered a Bond Arms for a dedicated snake gun in rural TX while doing yard work. But instead I chose a short barrel plastic/steel revolver chambered in.410/45 Colt and have been entirely satisfied for that practical purpose.

As for range toy, I'd like to own one purely because I do not have a sample of any kind in my collection. But it would be shot very rarely I think, just for fun. I'm not going to seek one out, but if I saw one at a price I could live with I'd probably buy it as an impulse buy.

 

[Kleanbore]

Even with all the drawbacks of a derringer, one can still be effective with it out to 7 yards,

"effective"? Consistently? I seriously doubt it, unless one or both shots just happen to strike something critical, the target is stationary, and the defender is afforded a lot of time.

 

[TTv2]

"effective"? Consistently? I seriously doubt it, unless one or both shots just happen to strike something critical, the target is stationary, and the defender is afforded a lot of time.

Even with the awful sights on my Leinad derringer, I'm still able to hit targets out to 10 yards with the .45 bullets keyholing. Even one hit on the attacker gives the defender a huge advantage both physically and psychologically.

And it's been said before, but the mere drawing or threat of drawing a gun stops a lot of potential attacks.

 

[scaatylobo]

But the mini Taurus and Berettas were available in .25 also -- a wimpy cartridge, true, but much more reliable than rimfire.

I beg to differ.

But as one who has recently fired a few hundred rounds of .25 auto into various items.

I could not find anyone willing to be the test subject,AND those little freakin rounds had more penetration that the .22 short HV !!.

And being mostly hard ball that I fired,they had penetration into wet phone books and meat.

Its is not by any means a primary S/D gun.

BUT in your pocket during cold weather,and used as a SUPER FAST 8 rounds to the head ----- my not so humble opinion,they work.

 

[Kleanbore]

Even one hit on the attacker gives the defender a huge advantage both physically and psychologically.

Will that "huge advantage" be sufficient?

And it's been said before, but the mere drawing or threat of drawing a gun stops a lot of potential attacks.

I can think of no less persuasive argument to justify the carrying of an ineffective defensive weapon.

 

[TTv2]

Will that "huge advantage" be sufficient?

I cannot say, but it's certainly more of an advantage than a disadvantage.

I can think of no less persuasive argument to justify the carrying of an ineffective defensive weapon.

You can think that, but I've heard stories of people simply putting their hand in their pocket in a fashion that made an aggressive person leave the potential victim alone.

Your argument has been that "any gun is better than no gun" doesn't hold up with derringers, but I disagree. That in no way means I support someone going out of their way to own a derringer if alternative options are available, but the more I think about it, the more I cannot say that they are completely useless.

 

[Kleanbore]

You can think that, but I've heard stories of people simply putting their hand in their pocket in a fashion that made an aggressive person leave the potential victim alone.

I have done that. too. That does not make me think that carrying a rather ineffective defensive weapon would ever be a good idea.

Your argument has been that "any gun is better than no gun" doesn't hold up with derringers, but I disagree.

My argument is that some guns may not be sufficiently better than no gun to give the defender a reasonable chance.

That applies to more than derringers.

 

[FlSwampRat]

And another: "might there not be a much better alternative"?

Sorry, but "any gun is better than no gun at all" says little for the derringer.

Take off your shoe and sock, put the derringer in the sock. You now have a marginally useful mace, which is probably better than a two shot derringer under an attack situation.

Think an upgrade of Paul Kersey's coins in the sock from Death Wish.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

I think the real problem for me with *derringers* is that they are too damn expensive for what they are.

Having a manufacturing background, I am continually shocked at what a good, new derringer costs.

That said, in their PROPER context, they of course *make sense*.

As a "vest pocket" gun or a second back-up - they are in their zone.

I figure within their narrow parameters the worst failing they have is the paradoxically necessary, obtrusive hammer.

If .41 rimfire were available - I know there would be situations in which I would carry this old Remington.

Todd.

 

[Waveski]

Derringers - Any practical value or just a range toy?
I sure don't see any range toy value in a Derringer.

 

[cfullgraf]

I bought a Bond Arms Snake Slayer IV for a tractor gun when I am bush hogging the north forty. It is fun to shoot but I've not mastered reliable hits with .410 ammunition when shooting from the tractor. The trigger pull is terrible and prevent reliable hits even with a .410 shot shell.

I've bought a few different barrels for the gun including 38 Special and 327 Fed mag. The 327 Fed mag shotshell is quite usable but the shot shell load is small hence it's effectiveness is diminished.

I plan to keep the gun but it's usefulness has not been discovered. The Bond Arms derringers are well made but I question their effectiveness.

 

[HB]

I had a NAA mini (as well as a guardian). Guardian was very inaccurate and weighed 24oz loaded. Mini was thumb cock .22, similar to a derringer in usage.

I’m not convinced “no gun” is worse. At least then you will not be tempted to use it. You will have to grapple or run.

I think pepperspray is better than most derringers. I’ve never used it live but have played with the blue training cans.

 

[scaatylobo]

Will that "huge advantage" be sufficient?

I can think of no less persuasive argument to justify the carrying of an ineffective defensive weapon.

I am guessing that you are either ignoring my post,or did not read it ?.

The one about the man that actually used a High Standard o/u .22 magnum derringer to stop his abduction by 2 armed men !.

It was a actual news story and one I never doubted as there was a real dead guy to prove it worked.

NOT my first choice,but if it works then I am on board.

 

[exbrit49]

In summer when its really hot and all I wear is pair of shorts and a tee shirt, I carry my 38 spl 2 shot derringer in the shorts pocket, Well hidden and easy to use. Accuracy is reasonable can put two rounds in 6 inches at 7 yards. I spent quite a bit of time at the range years ago when o first got it ad after some practice, I am quite confident with its accuracy and know exactly what to expect in the way of recoil. Its very manageable.
For me thats plenty. As side note I only shoot larger caliber handguns and the 38 for me is no problem!
At night when wearing regular clothes I will switch to my .357 model 19!