gvnwst
Member
Probably unchambered blanks with the extension.
I cant wait for the write up!
Desert Tactical SRS .338 Lapua
- Thread starter Maverick223
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Probably unchambered blanks with the extension.
I cant wait for the write up!
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Maverick223
Member
Me either
I still haven't received my order confirmation (placed order via e-mail last night)...figured I would get it today...jeebus whatcha get fer $4k? Unfortunately I have to mail them a personal check, as they charge a 3% fee for credit/debit and that gets steep at that price, can't have it eating up my glassware funds. I am either going with IOR or Premier Reticles...leaning towards the IOR due to price though.gvnwst
Member
Well, when i ordered my $3k AR, it didn't even start to get assembeled for like 4 months!
Those look like some nice optics, but such price.... Are you rich to afford this thing?
Those look like some nice optics, but such price.... Are you rich to afford this thing?
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Maverick223
Member
Almost as rich as you
Ever heard of the band "Big and Rich"? Thats not me...and i'm not in it.
gvnwst
Member
Almost as rich as you
Then how the heck can you afford such a awesome rifle, and such optics to go with it?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! I am like, the super poor guy who just sits in front of his computer making everyone think he actually knows something about guns and LR shooting.....
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Maverick223
Member
LOL...somebody nice must have ordered that $4K AR for you...you'll have to introduce me
gvnwst
Member
Oh crap. i meant $2k. But with the scope...$2.5k..... (then add the $700 worth of dedicated .22lr upper goodness)
That one took a LOT of saving, over a year and a half.
(then add the $700 worth of dedicated .22lr upper goodness)That one took a LOT of saving, over a year and a half.
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Maverick223
Member
Good, i'd hate to think you'd pay $4k for something like a AR
Zak Smith
Member
I think even I would be hard-pressed to put together a "$4K AR" unless it had a S&B on top.
gvnwst
Member
For that much money, it better have a GOOD scope on it and happen to not be a AR-15....
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Maverick223
Member
S&B...on a AR, that's like clothing a bum in Armani.
Pulse
Member
4k AR?
how about 5k AR?
http://www.oberlandarms.com/pdf/waffen/langwaffen/oa_rifles_oa-15-spriii.pdf
those crazy germans!
how about 5k AR?
http://www.oberlandarms.com/pdf/waffen/langwaffen/oa_rifles_oa-15-spriii.pdf
those crazy germans!
gvnwst
Member
Actually, i missed something, if you happen to add a high end suppressor with thhose optics, the AR can easily reach $4k... But for a bare AR, no way i would pay that much.
But for a bare AR, no way i would pay that much.
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Maverick223
Member
IOR 6-214x50mm vs. Premier 5-25x56mm
Alright, the rifle purchase is finalized, now for the optics (this is really directed at Zak but the more replies the better). I am starting to second-guess my thoughts on a IOR. They have great glass, but I have heard bad things about quality about some of them (Please note that if I get an IOR it will be a SFP version). I am starting to consider getting a insanely expensive Premier Reticles 5-25x56, however it has one feature that I am not too happy about...the objective is a little large for my taste. I know that it will capture more light but it also raises the scope off of the mount (DTA recommends a scope "not to exceed 56mm"). On a positive note the scope is simpler in operation, and from all accounts has glass as good as or superior to S&B. The Premier is in the FFP (which I am not used to) and in some ways I prefer that system as long as the reticle is very fine, so as not to obscure the target at long range. No matter which scope is chosen the system is not likely to be abused in any way, however I would prefer a durable platform with excellent glass characteristics and repeatability. Is the Premier worth the additional $1k+? What are your thoughts?
Alright, the rifle purchase is finalized, now for the optics (this is really directed at Zak but the more replies the better). I am starting to second-guess my thoughts on a IOR. They have great glass, but I have heard bad things about quality about some of them (Please note that if I get an IOR it will be a SFP version). I am starting to consider getting a insanely expensive Premier Reticles 5-25x56, however it has one feature that I am not too happy about...the objective is a little large for my taste. I know that it will capture more light but it also raises the scope off of the mount (DTA recommends a scope "not to exceed 56mm"). On a positive note the scope is simpler in operation, and from all accounts has glass as good as or superior to S&B. The Premier is in the FFP (which I am not used to) and in some ways I prefer that system as long as the reticle is very fine, so as not to obscure the target at long range. No matter which scope is chosen the system is not likely to be abused in any way, however I would prefer a durable platform with excellent glass characteristics and repeatability. Is the Premier worth the additional $1k+? What are your thoughts?
Zak Smith
Member
Well, as usual, I would direct you to my two long-range optics articles first. Their information is still current with respect to products with the following exceptions:
* Nightforce has a FFP 3-15
* the two Premier scopes
There are basically three manufacturers who offer the features I believe is ideal for practical long-range shooting: USO, Premier, and S&B. (NF and Leupold are both missing at least one feature, or have limited combinations; IOR is getting close but falls in this category as well). I have owned/bought and/or used all of these - I've paid for with my own money Leupold Mark 4, NF, USO, S&B. I have a loaner Premier have demoed a recent IOR.
My general comments with respect to what you've already written:
1) I strongly recommend less than 5-25. Most people buy "too much scope" and this is a good example of it. My preferred scope for 0-1200 yards is the S&B 3-12x50, but I do enjoy the extra magnification of the Premier 3-15. I do own a S&B 5-25x56, but it is the least preferred scope of the bunch because of size and magnification levels which do nothing for me. (I actually moved it to the least shot/carried rifle, the 50, where size/weight is moot and I am truly more likely to engage 1000-2000 yard targets than 0-1200.) With extremely clear glass (that the USO, S&B, and Premier all have) and a FFP reticle setup, I find the scopes most "usable" in the 12-15x range; however, I rarely wish for more than 12x in my "small" S&Bs. Just to prove the point, I have engaged 1000+ yard targets (large ones) at 3x in my S&B 3-12, and have in fact used the 12x to as far as 1670 yards (it was an approx 18" plate if I remember). On my 5-25, I normally shoot it less than 16-18x anyway. Remember with a FFP reticle turning the power up does not make your reticle aiming features "smaller" with respect to the target; it makes everything bigger.
2) If this is for practical shooting, get the FFP reticle and matching knob/reticle units. The Premier reticle, the S&B P4-Fine, and the "fine" USO mil and moa reticles are all "fine" enough to use at max power but not too fine to see at their lowest magnifications. For practical shooting, the only downside to a FFP setup is cost. I would also strongly counsel towards mil/mil (0.1 mil clicks and some mil-dot or mil-hash reticle).
3) I currently have one of the Premier 3-15x50's for demo, and it's on my AWSM (which is currently in 7RM not 338LM). I moved the S&B 5-25 off this rifle to try the Premier. I like everything about the Premier scope except for the knob configuration. The early production demo unit I have has like 20+ mils in one turn and very hard every-10-click "clunks." The clicks are too close together and there is only one hash mark every 2 clicks, and it's easy to overshoot the "clunks" (the military requested the "clunk" on 1.0 mil increment). I understand that they have two new knob configurations, a single turn with somewhere around 13 mils and a double turn with 20+ mils. I was told that these solve the "fine click" and clunk issues. However, I have not handled these two configurations yet so I cannot yet endorse them 100% as easy to use, etc. As far as I am concerned, if they can get a knob setup that's as easy to use as the S&B PMII "double turn", the Premier 3-15 will be my scope of choice. However, I'm not going to dump almost $10k in S&B scopes to upgrade either.
4) The USO's are great scopes; they operate a little differently and are larger and heavier.
If you want to spend under $2000, your best bet is the Nightforce 3-15x50 FIRST FOCAL.
If you want a more compact, lighter, efficient overall package and will be shooting mostly within 1250 yards at smallish targets (say 1 MOA or larger) with excursions to 1500 yards at larger targets (say 2 MOA +), the S&B 3-12x50 would be my choice. I run it on my .308, .260, and have on my 7, etc. I strongly prefer to "carry" a rifle with a 3-12 over the 5-25. The Premier 3-15 would be a drop-in replacement for the 3-12x50 S&B with regard to this paragraph, provided the knob usability issues detailed above are actually fixed in the two new versions of it. The Premier also seems slightly heavier than the 3-12 S&B, but it's more or less the same size.
If you don't care about form factor and weight, the 5-25 S&B is one hell of a scope, but like I said, realistically more magnification than helps in practical shooting and large/heavy. The same comments would apply to the Premier 5-25.
There are currently a lot of these high-end scopes for sale used on SnipersHide, so there's a potential to get a good/great deal.
There are 4-16 S&B's, but in this form factor they do not offer the double-turn knob in mil units. They do offer it in MOA but they have no MOA reticles to match it. Thus, I discount them entirely.
* Nightforce has a FFP 3-15
* the two Premier scopes
There are basically three manufacturers who offer the features I believe is ideal for practical long-range shooting: USO, Premier, and S&B. (NF and Leupold are both missing at least one feature, or have limited combinations; IOR is getting close but falls in this category as well). I have owned/bought and/or used all of these - I've paid for with my own money Leupold Mark 4, NF, USO, S&B. I have a loaner Premier have demoed a recent IOR.
My general comments with respect to what you've already written:
1) I strongly recommend less than 5-25. Most people buy "too much scope" and this is a good example of it. My preferred scope for 0-1200 yards is the S&B 3-12x50, but I do enjoy the extra magnification of the Premier 3-15. I do own a S&B 5-25x56, but it is the least preferred scope of the bunch because of size and magnification levels which do nothing for me. (I actually moved it to the least shot/carried rifle, the 50, where size/weight is moot and I am truly more likely to engage 1000-2000 yard targets than 0-1200.) With extremely clear glass (that the USO, S&B, and Premier all have) and a FFP reticle setup, I find the scopes most "usable" in the 12-15x range; however, I rarely wish for more than 12x in my "small" S&Bs. Just to prove the point, I have engaged 1000+ yard targets (large ones) at 3x in my S&B 3-12, and have in fact used the 12x to as far as 1670 yards (it was an approx 18" plate if I remember). On my 5-25, I normally shoot it less than 16-18x anyway. Remember with a FFP reticle turning the power up does not make your reticle aiming features "smaller" with respect to the target; it makes everything bigger.
2) If this is for practical shooting, get the FFP reticle and matching knob/reticle units. The Premier reticle, the S&B P4-Fine, and the "fine" USO mil and moa reticles are all "fine" enough to use at max power but not too fine to see at their lowest magnifications. For practical shooting, the only downside to a FFP setup is cost. I would also strongly counsel towards mil/mil (0.1 mil clicks and some mil-dot or mil-hash reticle).
3) I currently have one of the Premier 3-15x50's for demo, and it's on my AWSM (which is currently in 7RM not 338LM). I moved the S&B 5-25 off this rifle to try the Premier. I like everything about the Premier scope except for the knob configuration. The early production demo unit I have has like 20+ mils in one turn and very hard every-10-click "clunks." The clicks are too close together and there is only one hash mark every 2 clicks, and it's easy to overshoot the "clunks" (the military requested the "clunk" on 1.0 mil increment). I understand that they have two new knob configurations, a single turn with somewhere around 13 mils and a double turn with 20+ mils. I was told that these solve the "fine click" and clunk issues. However, I have not handled these two configurations yet so I cannot yet endorse them 100% as easy to use, etc. As far as I am concerned, if they can get a knob setup that's as easy to use as the S&B PMII "double turn", the Premier 3-15 will be my scope of choice. However, I'm not going to dump almost $10k in S&B scopes to upgrade either.
4) The USO's are great scopes; they operate a little differently and are larger and heavier.
If you want to spend under $2000, your best bet is the Nightforce 3-15x50 FIRST FOCAL.
If you want a more compact, lighter, efficient overall package and will be shooting mostly within 1250 yards at smallish targets (say 1 MOA or larger) with excursions to 1500 yards at larger targets (say 2 MOA +), the S&B 3-12x50 would be my choice. I run it on my .308, .260, and have on my 7, etc. I strongly prefer to "carry" a rifle with a 3-12 over the 5-25. The Premier 3-15 would be a drop-in replacement for the 3-12x50 S&B with regard to this paragraph, provided the knob usability issues detailed above are actually fixed in the two new versions of it. The Premier also seems slightly heavier than the 3-12 S&B, but it's more or less the same size.
If you don't care about form factor and weight, the 5-25 S&B is one hell of a scope, but like I said, realistically more magnification than helps in practical shooting and large/heavy. The same comments would apply to the Premier 5-25.
There are currently a lot of these high-end scopes for sale used on SnipersHide, so there's a potential to get a good/great deal.
There are 4-16 S&B's, but in this form factor they do not offer the double-turn knob in mil units. They do offer it in MOA but they have no MOA reticles to match it. Thus, I discount them entirely.
buy once cry once mav. it took me a while to learn this lesson, and i ended up wasting alot of money. having said that i should have my premier heritage 3-15 by july.
1k more sounds like alot of money, but if you shoot often you will end up spending alot more than that in ammo, range fee's, etc. i won't go cheap on fixed cost parts for my rifles anymore.
1k more sounds like alot of money, but if you shoot often you will end up spending alot more than that in ammo, range fee's, etc. i won't go cheap on fixed cost parts for my rifles anymore.
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Maverick223
Member
Read it but it makes no mention of Premier (for obvious reasons) or IOR (assuming because of the FFP problem). As far as the Nightforce, it is a very well built scope but I believe the glass suffers for the price. Thanks for the clarification.
That is the only downside I see to owning a FFP scope, but with proper reticle selection, I can overcome this obstacle.
I am a member (same name) there, so I will certainly give that a shot, otherwise it is looking like a Premier may be in my future.
Zak Smith said:
Zak, your advice doesn't always fall on deaf ears!! After much deliberation (and your recommendation), I ordered a Swarovski Laser Guide range finder today.
It should come in handy on a pig/sheep eradication "hunt" in August and help with ranging steel plates (200 to 500 yards) at my local range. Thanks for the advice.
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Maverick223
Member
Well at least Zak is good for something...
UPDATE:It is about new rifle time...should be delivered in about a weeks time. I did indeed decide on the Premier Heritage in 5-25x56mm, and have it on order with Liberty Optics, Scott gave me a deal that I couldn't refuse (over $500 less than MSRP) but I will have to wait till sometime in June for delivery of said scope. I will give a update when the rifle arrives and a full review on the entire system upon receipt of the optics.
UPDATE:It is about new rifle time...should be delivered in about a weeks time. I did indeed decide on the Premier Heritage in 5-25x56mm, and have it on order with Liberty Optics, Scott gave me a deal that I couldn't refuse (over $500 less than MSRP) but I will have to wait till sometime in June for delivery of said scope. I will give a update when the rifle arrives and a full review on the entire system upon receipt of the optics.
Maverick223 said:
Maverick223, GREAT news for you and congratulations on the rifle. I'm looking forward to hearing all about the rifle AND the scope. You mentioned IOR in an earlier post and I got to look through one at a recent match. I was impressed by the reticle, the clarity and the overall design/fit/finish. I'd still rather have an S&B, although but I'd be happy with anything from USO, IOR, NF, Premier or S&B ... I'm an equal opportunity user!
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Maverick223
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If you live or visit NC/SC shoot me a PM and you can give it a shot. Had a chance to look through the Premier (but not shoot it) and it looks as good or better than a S&B IMHO, we shall see in the coming weeks...
Maverick223, sadly I don't live anywhere near NC or SC but thanks very much for the offer!! I don't know anything about Premier optics but that is a fine-looking piece of hardware that you've ordered with many impressive and desirable features. I'm going to add that to the list in my previous post.
http://www.premierreticles.com/Products/HT5-25.html
http://www.premierreticles.com/PDF Files/Option Description.pdf
http://www.premierreticles.com/Products/HT5-25.html
http://www.premierreticles.com/PDF Files/Option Description.pdf
gvnwst
Member
Mav, when you get it, you had better write it up, everything.
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Maverick223
Member
You are very welcome, come on over sometime...
Will do, Mav.
Will Fennell
Member
1000+ yards?
Mav,
We don't live that far apart......where are you shooting that has that much range? Finding a range that will get you to 1K is hard enough....but getting out further is going to be tough. I've got a .260 and a new TRG22 that I'm wanting to stretch the legs on
Mav,
We don't live that far apart......where are you shooting that has that much range? Finding a range that will get you to 1K is hard enough....but getting out further is going to be tough. I've got a .260 and a new TRG22 that I'm wanting to stretch the legs on
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