REAPER4206969
Member
The half cock interceptor notch.
Designed to be carried Cocked and Locked: Not!
- Thread starter Slamfire
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christcorp
Member
So there's no way in the world that it was designed or used to lower the hammer? You know that for a fact? You've got some official report that says it was to ONLY be used for a 2nd strike? And what someone's brother's girlfriend's father's plumber's golf coach who stayed at a holiday inn express; doesn't count.
As Supernaut mentioned, I too have NEVER read/seen any type of study that shows people have accidental discharges in or going to condition-2. I would bet that it is so rare, that it is about the same frequency as other accidental discharges. I remember as a little kid that my baby sister was SO SCARED of a monster under her bed. And no matter how many times I or my parents tried to explain to her that it just didn't exist, she was still just as scared. There are some people that are just so scared of lowering the hammer on a pistol. Even though the proof and data isn't there to show that it's dangerous. And I can definitely think for myself. There is absolutely nothing wrong with lowering the hammer on a 1911A1.
REAPER4206969
Member
Where did you read that in my post?
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Once again, the manual does not necessarily indicate design intent, just application of the design as it exists.
christcorp
Member
Well, you said it was used to recock for a second strike. You didn't say recock for a second strike AND TO LOWER the hammer when imminent danger is not present.
So being you only mentioned the 1st part, I assumed that was what you believed the hammer was used for. And Kurt; I have copies of many of the army field manual. And while you can't speak for anyone else, if you admit that the field manual says that your suppose to carry the weapon in Condition-3, unless you're expecting to draw the weapon; I can admit that condition-2 also isn't the preferred method.
But again, single action pistols like the 1911A1 is not as safe as double actions that don't have hammers and firing pins under constant tension. There are definitely a number of safeties, but the ONLY safer than a hammer or firing pin that is down and not under tension, is to have no round in the chamber at all. Condition-3. So; as long as we understand our weapon's limitations, capabilities, and potential hazards; and remain aware of them during our handling of; then how we carry it isn't that important.
So being you only mentioned the 1st part, I assumed that was what you believed the hammer was used for. And Kurt; I have copies of many of the army field manual. And while you can't speak for anyone else, if you admit that the field manual says that your suppose to carry the weapon in Condition-3, unless you're expecting to draw the weapon; I can admit that condition-2 also isn't the preferred method.
But again, single action pistols like the 1911A1 is not as safe as double actions that don't have hammers and firing pins under constant tension. There are definitely a number of safeties, but the ONLY safer than a hammer or firing pin that is down and not under tension, is to have no round in the chamber at all. Condition-3. So; as long as we understand our weapon's limitations, capabilities, and potential hazards; and remain aware of them during our handling of; then how we carry it isn't that important.
REAPER4206969
Member
Ya that's what it is.
People who carry a 1911 in any other condition than 1 are scared to death of their own pistol.REAPER4206969
Member
There is no other reason to carry a 1911 in C2/3 then fear/misunderstanding of the firearm and/or fear of their own incompetence.
As a prospective Cavalry Sidearm, I believe the one-handed use, and, being able to bring the Arm from the Holster and to Battery/ready with one hand, was a consideration.
The Thumb 'Safety' permitted the M1911 to be carried fully Cocked with a chambered Round and a full Magazine, and, for the operative to disingauge the 'Thumb Safety' when wishing to fire, and, to re-apply the Thumb-actuated 'Safety' once done firing, or as may be.
I do not understand how there could be anything controversial about this.
The Model 1905 .45 Automatic, had no exterior 'safety' appendages.
I assume, one carried it Hammer 'down' on a live round, or, carried it Hammer 'down' on an empty Chamber, or, carried it at Half-Cock with a live round chambered.
These had an inertial Firing Pin, as did the later M1900-M1902 and M1903 'Pocket' .38 Automatics, where, carrying Hammer 'down' with a round chambered was relatively safe....maybe even better than 'relatively' safe.
The M1911 was an inertial Firing Pin design also...far as that goes.
The Thumb 'Safety' permitted the M1911 to be carried fully Cocked with a chambered Round and a full Magazine, and, for the operative to disingauge the 'Thumb Safety' when wishing to fire, and, to re-apply the Thumb-actuated 'Safety' once done firing, or as may be.
I do not understand how there could be anything controversial about this.
The Model 1905 .45 Automatic, had no exterior 'safety' appendages.
I assume, one carried it Hammer 'down' on a live round, or, carried it Hammer 'down' on an empty Chamber, or, carried it at Half-Cock with a live round chambered.
These had an inertial Firing Pin, as did the later M1900-M1902 and M1903 'Pocket' .38 Automatics, where, carrying Hammer 'down' with a round chambered was relatively safe....maybe even better than 'relatively' safe.
The M1911 was an inertial Firing Pin design also...far as that goes.
REAPER4206969
Member
Is there any other logical reason? C2/3 carry does not, in anyway make the pistol a more efficient defensive/offensive weapon. C1 does.
christcorp
Member
Supernaut; let me try.
Reaper. Super's comment about "TRUST" was aimed at forcing the 1911A1 owner to make a choice. The choice is:
"Do I trust the gun MORE than I trust MYSELF"
In other words, if you don't believe in Condition-2, then it's because you DON'T trust yourself. And you'd RATHER TRUST your gun, by keeping it in Condition-1.
In other words, you, Reaper, trust your gun MORE than you trust yourself.
That is indeed a paradox that one must contemplate. If you can't trust yourself, above all other things in life around you, then why would you even think about owning a gun? You might believe that you, the human, the gun handler, could possibly have an "ACCIDENT" while putting the 1911A1 into Condition-2. But for some reason, you believe that the process of going to condition-1, and the gun itself, is actually safer than the human.
This brings a new light to the old adage of "Guns Don't Kill People, People Kill People". So maybe, our 1911A1's have gotten so good, that if a scenario comes up where we want to use the gun to shoot something or someone, the gun won't ALLOW it. That's because the gun is more trustworthy than the shooter.
Me personally; I trust ME more than I trust a piece of mechanics made up of springs and metal. I'll stick with condition-2. Or more than likely, I stick with my double action Sig P220 so I get the best of all worlds.
REAPER4206969
Member
No, It's because condition two is worthless for a SAO pistol.
It speaks directly to the inherent danger of idiots working on firearms. Or the idiots who refuse to have them repaired.
How would you load it without releasing the slide? No, holding the trigger back is not a viable option; having the firearm repaired is.
silversport
Member
...but we're pretty sure the magazines are used to load the bullets into the bottom, right???...I mean they do fit in the top thingy...
Bill
Bill
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Let's address the safety concerns over carrying in C1.
A few years back, I demonstrated the function to a guy who was also unconvinced that the gun wouldn't spontaneously fire from C1.
I had a junk hammer and sear in the box. First, I removed a full 1/8th inch from the sear crown to simulate a failure. Not only did the half-cock notch grab it and arrest the hammer...the hammer held full cock, and actually fired and functioned normally for about 30 rounds...and when the hammer started to follow the slide...the half-cock caught it every time.
As with any gun, safety depends mainly on the handler. While it's possible for a 1911 to experience hammer follow when chambering the top round, unless something is bad wrong...the half cock will stop the hammer. The key to not shooting yourself in the foot...or your dog in the rump...is to maintain muzzle control, and keep the gun pointed in a safe direction whenever loading it. Dirt is a good backstop. A 2-foot thick stack of dry newspaper will also work.
A few years back, I demonstrated the function to a guy who was also unconvinced that the gun wouldn't spontaneously fire from C1.
I had a junk hammer and sear in the box. First, I removed a full 1/8th inch from the sear crown to simulate a failure. Not only did the half-cock notch grab it and arrest the hammer...the hammer held full cock, and actually fired and functioned normally for about 30 rounds...and when the hammer started to follow the slide...the half-cock caught it every time.
As with any gun, safety depends mainly on the handler. While it's possible for a 1911 to experience hammer follow when chambering the top round, unless something is bad wrong...the half cock will stop the hammer. The key to not shooting yourself in the foot...or your dog in the rump...is to maintain muzzle control, and keep the gun pointed in a safe direction whenever loading it. Dirt is a good backstop. A 2-foot thick stack of dry newspaper will also work.
A different viewpoint: You don't trust yourself to be cognizant of the condition of you weapon. You're afraid you will somehow wipe the safety off, depress the grip safety and pull the trigger. You're also afraid you'll may something to break the hammer causing the gun to discharge.
You're not afraid of fine motor skills diminishing under stress and you trust Mr. Murphy to keep his very large nose out of your business.
I trust my training with C1. I have no need of C2.
http://www.sightm1911.com/manual/manual.htm
page 19
In this 1940’s manual, the Army did not fully trust cocked and locked or they would not have inserted this warning. They must have experienced accidental shootings after the thumb safety got wiped off.
That would explain why it was standard procedure in many units to carry the thing with nothing in the chamber and hammer down.
page 19
In this 1940’s manual, the Army did not fully trust cocked and locked or they would not have inserted this warning. They must have experienced accidental shootings after the thumb safety got wiped off.
That would explain why it was standard procedure in many units to carry the thing with nothing in the chamber and hammer down.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
They probably had some unintentional discharges after the thumb safety got wiped off, the gun was held in a firing grip, and the trigger was pulled.
The grip safety still blocks the trigger. Depressing the grip safety and pulling the trigger makes the gun fire.
Try an experiment with an empty gun. Cock it and leave the safety in the fire position. Carry it around the house in an open-topped holster every day for a month. At the end of the month, the hammer will still be cocked.
We're assuming a functional grip safety and no trigger ticklin' during the test period.
EddieNFL said:
I've also read reports of brand new 1911's experiencing hammer follow.
True, but my point is that the C1 crowd often go on about the "danger" of C2 and the "numerous" accounts of people who shoot themselves when lowering the hammer, even though we also have "numerous" accounts of the half-cock notch failing.
p.s. All, this is The High Road and using terms like "fearful/incompetent/idiot/moron" to describe posters is not in line with the board's rules.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
So have I. Seen it happen. That's why the owners' manuals instruct the owners to perform a slide-drop test before loading it , and occasionally after the gun has been used as part of the safety function tests. If the hammer follows the slide...the gun is malfunctioning and needs to be repaired.
Hammer following to half-cock is usually caused by inertial trigger bounce, and also usually a simple matter of insufficent sear spring tension on the middle leg. This very often comes as a result of deliberately removing tension from the spring in order to achieve the Holy Grail...the 3.5-pound trigger pull. It's also usually a simple matter of bending the center leg forward and placing more force against the trigger. Sometimes it also requires tweaking the left leg of the spring to place more force on the sear. Sometimes it requires replacing the sear spring...but not often. It's a machine. It sometimes requires maintenance.
Springs can and do weaken over time and with use. That's a fact. Replacing them once in a while is just good sense.
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