Detail Stripping Glock, Smith M&P9
- Thread starter Jaywalker
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highorder
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It's quite simple. There's a great .pdf link on the Burwell gunsmithing website.
I'll see if I can find it.
I'll see if I can find it.
Quack
Member
Apex Tactical has videos on YouTube.
fastbolt
Member
Inspired?!?
The M&P isn't quite as simple as the Glock. The Glock requires a simple pin punch, a small flat blade/slot screw driver and sight tools.
The M&P requires a 1/16th hex/allen wrench; small flat blade screwdriver; armorer's block/wedge; 1/16 drive punch, 3/32 starter punch; 1/8 roll pin & drive punches; hammer; assembly pin & 1/4 brass rod (unless a sight pusher is used).
There's at least one original version of the M&P armorer manual floating around the internet. I have 3 versions I've been given as an armorer (the original '06 manual and 2 subsequent revisions). I imagine a newer revision is either out, or shortly due out, to include the Shield. Last time I asked a few months ago I was told they were still awaiting final approval by their legal dept.
Some thoughts, off the top of my head ...
The original solid extractor pins for the 9/.40/.357's are pressed in very tightly, but the roll pins used in the .45 and newer 9/.40/.357's are easier (the starter punch isn't needed).
The sear housing assembly has changed depending on production vintage and the model. One some blocks the ejector is simply positioned against the left side of the block, held in place by the frame, and in others it's slipped into a slot at the front of the block. The original sear plunger & spring are REALLY small and easily lost. The "new" standard plunger & spring (the original MA compliant parts) only fit in blocks made for them. The thumb safety assembly can be a bit difficult to align between the block and the inside of the frame when positioning everything for installing the rear coil pin through the sear housing block. Installing the mag safety lever's spring can be done incorrectly (bowed end of spring goes forward) and it's done within a tight space. The plastic cap is easily forgotten in the non-safety models. The sear & lever pins shouldn't be mixed up.
The trigger spring is a bit difficult to install without the use of an assembly pin. The front of the spring has to remain properly positioned when the headed trigger pin is installed. (S&W gives armorers the slave pin originally developed for the Sigma armorer class, but now included in their basic plastic pistol tool kit used for M&P, SW99 & Sigma.)
The rear sight does have to be removed in order to service/replace the safety plunger & spring, and there's an added step of positioning the striker assembly relative to the safety plunger when removing/installing the striker assembly. The striker assembly includes a secondary spring, the striker return spring (ala the 99 series
), and there are 2 different striker designs. The original uses a pair of spring keepers and the revised (current) one uses a single keeper, which must be oriented in a specific way.The wire spring used to retain the takedown lever can be easily lost when the locking block is removed from the frame (I use a dab of grease to better keep it in its locking block recess when the block is out of the frame). The front coil pin is intentionally left a bit outside the frame on the left, to act as a "stop" for the takedown lever (and help prevent marring of the frame by the lever).
It's easy to incorrectly position the trigger bar's tail in the sear housing block when trying to reassemble the frame.
FWIW, as an armorer, the 99 series is more difficult than the M&P in some respects ... and I have absolutely NO desire to regularly support the PPS as an armorer.
In practical terms, it's not a good idea for untrained folks (and those not having the right tools) to do a "detailed strip". LOTS of enthusiast Glock owners have lost parts, damaged parts and reassembled guns incorrectly.
I can't think of any armorer class I've attended over the years (more than 20) where there wasn't at least one person to lost or damaged parts, or one or more folks who reassembled guns incorrectly.
Bear in mind that this was after having been given a detailed armorer manual, the right tools, and after having watched an instructor perform and demonstrate the right way to do something being learned ... and having other students seated to either side, available for help, as well as any notes taken during the demo of the procedures being learned.
fastbolt
Member
Not trying to be discouraging, but precautionary.
Not knowing someone's background and experience when it comes to being mechanically-oriented, as well as being versed in breaking down any particular pistol more than that involved in field-stripping, it's usually unwise to encourage or prompt them to start disassembling guns.
I remember a fellow who considered himself a real "gun guy", who thought to himself that his issued S&W 3rd gen needed a "better cleaning" than that possible during simple field-stripping. He apparently dove into disassembling his weapon with some enthusiasm and confidence ... and I ended up being handed a freezer bag containing most of the parts & assemblies necessary to reassemble his weapon.
Another guy was off attending some training at another agency, and he let that agency's armorer try to detail-strip his weapon (99 series). Ultimately, this resulted in the armorer damaging a critical spring and the plastic frame, since he obviously wasn't familiar with some of the steps involved in disassembly compared to whatever other design(s) he had been trained to service. :banghead:
Another guy tried to remove the extractor pin of his issued 3rd gen S&W, apparently because someone else told him that in order to really clean his weapon he had to remove the extractor. Despite not having been trained how to do it (and despite NOT being authorized to do such a thing to an issued weapon), and not having the right tools ... but apparently having a big hammer ... he tried to remove the pin. The slide was completely ruined. The bottom hole was totally beaten out of shape and wallowed out, unable to ever properly hold an extractor pin again.
Enthusiasm and inspiration are no substitute for knowledge, training, experience and having the right tools.
It can keep the gun companies in business selling repair parts, or even new guns, though.
Not knowing someone's background and experience when it comes to being mechanically-oriented, as well as being versed in breaking down any particular pistol more than that involved in field-stripping, it's usually unwise to encourage or prompt them to start disassembling guns.
I remember a fellow who considered himself a real "gun guy", who thought to himself that his issued S&W 3rd gen needed a "better cleaning" than that possible during simple field-stripping. He apparently dove into disassembling his weapon with some enthusiasm and confidence ... and I ended up being handed a freezer bag containing most of the parts & assemblies necessary to reassemble his weapon.
Another guy was off attending some training at another agency, and he let that agency's armorer try to detail-strip his weapon (99 series). Ultimately, this resulted in the armorer damaging a critical spring and the plastic frame, since he obviously wasn't familiar with some of the steps involved in disassembly compared to whatever other design(s) he had been trained to service. :banghead:
Another guy tried to remove the extractor pin of his issued 3rd gen S&W, apparently because someone else told him that in order to really clean his weapon he had to remove the extractor. Despite not having been trained how to do it (and despite NOT being authorized to do such a thing to an issued weapon), and not having the right tools ... but apparently having a big hammer ... he tried to remove the pin. The slide was completely ruined. The bottom hole was totally beaten out of shape and wallowed out, unable to ever properly hold an extractor pin again.
Enthusiasm and inspiration are no substitute for knowledge, training, experience and having the right tools.
It can keep the gun companies in business selling repair parts, or even new guns, though.
fastbolt
Member
Dunno.
I suppose if it's bad enough, you might only need one of those little snack-size bags for the remaining parts.
I often stop by a cleaning station and remind the guys & gals standing around it to save any "extra" parts for me after they're done cleaning & reassembling their guns.
I suppose if it's bad enough, you might only need one of those little snack-size bags for the remaining parts.
I often stop by a cleaning station and remind the guys & gals standing around it to save any "extra" parts for me after they're done cleaning & reassembling their guns.
fastbolt
Member
It's not that it's something terribly complicated. After all, they can teach a brand new armorer to do it in a day.
It's just that the class helps by presenting things in an organized & sequential manner, first demonstrated by an instructor, and which follows the manual and allows the students to make additional notes. That's the place for folks to make mistakes, when they're learning on someone else's gun, and have an instructor standing by to help point out & correct mistakes (along with having extra parts).
Tips, tricks and easier ways of doing things are often discovered and passed along from one class to another, too, as well as the discussions of mistakes that can be made (and have been made).
One of the reasons for requiring periodic armorer recertification is to keep armorers abreast of changes in design, manufacturing, materials and production. These things can sometimes require changes in armorer procedures and maintenance/repair methods, too.
I know there were some interesting and important changes which occurred between my first and second M&P armorer classes. Ditto for my second, third, forth & fifth classes for other types of guns.
You can easily imagine the weird things that can happen when some private owners start incorporating aftermarket parts, and create problems for themselves where none previously existed before they started trying to improve & modify their guns. The "fix it till it's broken" movement is alive & going strong.
It's just that the class helps by presenting things in an organized & sequential manner, first demonstrated by an instructor, and which follows the manual and allows the students to make additional notes. That's the place for folks to make mistakes, when they're learning on someone else's gun, and have an instructor standing by to help point out & correct mistakes (along with having extra parts).
Tips, tricks and easier ways of doing things are often discovered and passed along from one class to another, too, as well as the discussions of mistakes that can be made (and have been made).
One of the reasons for requiring periodic armorer recertification is to keep armorers abreast of changes in design, manufacturing, materials and production. These things can sometimes require changes in armorer procedures and maintenance/repair methods, too.
I know there were some interesting and important changes which occurred between my first and second M&P armorer classes. Ditto for my second, third, forth & fifth classes for other types of guns.
You can easily imagine the weird things that can happen when some private owners start incorporating aftermarket parts, and create problems for themselves where none previously existed before they started trying to improve & modify their guns. The "fix it till it's broken" movement is alive & going strong.
I've ONLY detail stripped the slides on both these guns, not the frames.
Detail stripping the slide on a Glock takes maybe 1 minute tops, and nothing springs across the room on you. It requires a small screwdriver or equivalent to take the striker spring pressure off the plate, but that's it. There are no pins or anything like that. If it takes you 15 minutes to field strip and clean your Glock, spend an extra 5 minutes and you'll clean the striker, extractor, striker safety, and all associated channels.
To detail strip the M&P, forget it. The plate comes off same as the Glock, but that's where the similarity ends. You have to punch out a pin to get the extractor out, and the striker safety??? Get ready to remove the rear sight from its dovetail, and get your hand ready to catch the spring. Putting it back together is a HUGE PITA, and that cheap little circular "cover" for the spring is dying to get lost. In short, you won't detail strip your M&P slide.
A clean gun is a happy gun. I like guns that detail strip nice and easy because I'll maintain them better. Plus, there's something to be said for the engineers that make stuff easy to break down. The Glock wins in a landslide victory here.
Detail stripping the slide on a Glock takes maybe 1 minute tops, and nothing springs across the room on you. It requires a small screwdriver or equivalent to take the striker spring pressure off the plate, but that's it. There are no pins or anything like that. If it takes you 15 minutes to field strip and clean your Glock, spend an extra 5 minutes and you'll clean the striker, extractor, striker safety, and all associated channels.
To detail strip the M&P, forget it. The plate comes off same as the Glock, but that's where the similarity ends. You have to punch out a pin to get the extractor out, and the striker safety??? Get ready to remove the rear sight from its dovetail, and get your hand ready to catch the spring. Putting it back together is a HUGE PITA, and that cheap little circular "cover" for the spring is dying to get lost. In short, you won't detail strip your M&P slide.
A clean gun is a happy gun. I like guns that detail strip nice and easy because I'll maintain them better. Plus, there's something to be said for the engineers that make stuff easy to break down. The Glock wins in a landslide victory here.
fastbolt
Member
In the armorer class the safety plunger spring's circular plate used to be called the "UFO", as it could easily slip loose and go flying off.
Even if the spring plate was held in place so it was captured by the rear sight base, it was possible for the top of the safety plunger spring to become bent/folded over, underneath the plate. If that happened, the doubled over spring could block the upward freedom of movement of the safety plunger, making it so it couldn't fully & properly move when being acted upon by the vertical extension of the trigger bar during an intentional trigger pull ... and the gun might not fire because the safety plunger couldn't be moved out of the way of the striker.
Somebody finally had a good idea and revised the plunger spring and its plate to become a 1-piece assembly, joined together. Brilliantly simple solution to a couple of potential problems.
I've used the flat end of a large Starrett punch, or the eraser of a pencil, to hold the spring plate stationary until it could be properly captured by the left side of the rear sight base during assembly. Having the spring & plate joined together makes it much easier.
I would recommend to ANYONE installing an Apex kit to get this one piece assembly you speak of. Apex gives you a plastic "die" that dovetails into the rear sight cut and holds the spring and UFO down while you hammer the sight back into place. But yes, its VERY easy to get that spring doubled over while you're doing this.
Worst design ever as far as maintenance goes.
I have detail stripped both. While the M&P is simple it is not easy. Mainly it's the trigger pin having to go through so many different objects at once when re-assembling that is the biggest irritation. I think my trick was to use 2 punches and push one out as I got the pin through. Don't loose the sear spring by the way. It's very easy to do!
The Glock is significantly more simple in design and ease of dissassembly. I am also not a big fan of role pins, I much prefer pins that don't have to be hammered out. I also don't like how you have to take the rear sight off the M&P to get to the striker block. That just seems so unnecessary to me.
It's not something that can't be learned by watching an informative youtube video over and over. Just pay attention to detail and don't force anything with overt strength.
The Glock is significantly more simple in design and ease of dissassembly. I am also not a big fan of role pins, I much prefer pins that don't have to be hammered out. I also don't like how you have to take the rear sight off the M&P to get to the striker block. That just seems so unnecessary to me.
It's not something that can't be learned by watching an informative youtube video over and over. Just pay attention to detail and don't force anything with overt strength.
fastbolt
Member
I suspect S&W engineers defaulted to the original spring plate design because they've used something similar in their 3rd gen guns, but in that case they couldn't attach the oval shaped plate to the pair of springs needed to function the nylon & steel plungers contained in the slides.
In the M&P, someone apparently realized that since they only needed to cap a single spring, they could have one of their vendors make a spring plate that could be affixed to the single spring and make production, service & repair repair replacement a lot easier for everyone.
I've used the plastic dovetail widget Apex supplies when I was doing some work on a couple of personal weapons guys brought in for new sights. Not a bad widget to have for starting the rear sight far enough into the dovetail to capture the spring, before switching over to a sight pusher.
fastbolt
Member
I use the factory assembly pin, which is a short bullet-shaped pin. The rounded "bullet tip" makes it a lot easier to align holes & parts during reassembly, and the flat rear of the pin butts up against the end of the headed trigger pin. That way the trigger spring's closed coil can easily slip over the pins. I use a thin pin punch to help hold the spring coil "centered" in the proper position as the trigger pin is advanced.
I can be sort of a 3-handed job, although I use the edge of my bench to support/drive the headed trigger pin all the way into the frame, as I look down into the frame and keep the assembly parts aligned, and when the left side of the frame butts up against the edge of the bench, I'm done. (I make sure the headed trigger pin is flat against the outside of the frame, to finish up the installation.)
The use of the steel coil pins to secure the sear & locking block in the frame may be more difficult to use, but they also allow for the blocks to be firmly affixed to the steel straps molded into the frame. This essentially makes for a steel "box" in the frame, which helps absorb and disperse the recoil forces (instead of the forces acting upon a single pin, only being supported by a plastic frame).
The steel sear & locking blocks incorporating the frame rail tabs makes it simple to replace a damaged frame rail tab at the armorer level, versus having to replace an entire frame.
Walther uses a similar design in their 99 series, with a rolled steel pin used to secure the locking block, except that the pin tightly fits through just the locking block (no straps in the frame). That pin also requires then use of a roll pin punch and hammer in order to remove it and install it in the frame outside the factory (factory installed with a heavy press). A roll pin starter punch is handy when working on the 99's, too, to help avoid damaging the end of the pin. If the pin is peened on the end it can damage the frame's hole, wallowing it out.
LiveLife
Member
Here's the pdf from Burwell website - http://www.burwellguns.com/M&Ptriggerjob1.htmholdencm9 said:
I detail strip all of my pistols once a year (down to each component) and inspect each part and clean/replace as necessary. Glock is easier to do and with M&P, you can lose some small springs so be careful and do not work over carpet (yeah, ask me why
).I did the trigger job outlined in the pdf and the trigger in the M&P45 went from 7+ lbs to around 4.5 lbs. Much smoother than my Glock triggers and accuracy greatly improved.
Not as easy as Glock.
For the frame part, I do not find anything significantly more or less difficult.
For the slide, M&P requires tapping out the rear sight to get the firing pin block safety out, and tapping a pin out to take out the extractor parts.
However, it is still much easier compared to most other pistols.
For the frame part, I do not find anything significantly more or less difficult.
For the slide, M&P requires tapping out the rear sight to get the firing pin block safety out, and tapping a pin out to take out the extractor parts.
However, it is still much easier compared to most other pistols.
wally
Member
I really don't understand the compunction to do this, you must have way too much free time on your hands.
I'm a big "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!" kind of guy. I've at least seven pistols that are well over 10,000 rounds each and they have never been "detail stripped".
Normal cleaning meets the designer's objectives.
I've never had an issue learning enough detail stripping as needed when a broken part needs replacing -- Google and youTube are amazing resources, as is Brownell's.
LiveLife
Member
wally, that may be the case if you don't shoot a lot.
When I was shooting USPSA matches with two Glock 22's, I noticed carbon fouling coming through the bottom vent hole into the striker tube channel.
When enough carbon fouling deposit was compacted behind the breechwall, it would prevent the striker from making deep enough indentation on the primer and caused light primer strikes. When replacing the striker did not fix the light strike problem, I soaked the striker tube channel with Hoppes #9 several times and ended up scraping/almost chipping the hard carbon deposit off with a precision flat screwdriver. After the carbon deposit was removed, light primer strike problem went away even with the old striker and I got deep primer indentations.
Since then, I take apart the slide once a year and inspect/clean the area behind the breech wall of carbon deposit along with other parts.
When other Glock match shooters experienced light primer strike problem, I showed them how to remove the compacted carbon deposit and their problem went away.
Like a major tune up/full vehicle inspection I do with my cars, I consider full parts inspection/cleaning/parts replacement (like recoil/magazine spring, etc.) normal part of firearms maintenance.
When I was shooting USPSA matches with two Glock 22's, I noticed carbon fouling coming through the bottom vent hole into the striker tube channel.
When enough carbon fouling deposit was compacted behind the breechwall, it would prevent the striker from making deep enough indentation on the primer and caused light primer strikes. When replacing the striker did not fix the light strike problem, I soaked the striker tube channel with Hoppes #9 several times and ended up scraping/almost chipping the hard carbon deposit off with a precision flat screwdriver. After the carbon deposit was removed, light primer strike problem went away even with the old striker and I got deep primer indentations.
Since then, I take apart the slide once a year and inspect/clean the area behind the breech wall of carbon deposit along with other parts.
When other Glock match shooters experienced light primer strike problem, I showed them how to remove the compacted carbon deposit and their problem went away.
Like a major tune up/full vehicle inspection I do with my cars, I consider full parts inspection/cleaning/parts replacement (like recoil/magazine spring, etc.) normal part of firearms maintenance.
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