I know many of you have seen this before, but it's still amazing to me what transpired.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm
Details of FBI Miami gun battle....amazing.
- Thread starter jake01
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Pilgrim
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It is a concept I found difficult to teach to peace officers, that if a criminal is prepared to fight, get hurt, and die, he can inflict terrible damage to peace officers not so mentally prepared.
In military terms, Platt and Matix launched a violent counter-attack and seized the initiative. Something the German Army did quite frequently and well on the Eastern Front in World War II.
In military terms, Platt and Matix launched a violent counter-attack and seized the initiative. Something the German Army did quite frequently and well on the Eastern Front in World War II.
Tom C.
Member.
As a former military aviator, the saying we have is: you f**k up, you die. Hopefully the FBI has learned that now.
Double Maduro
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Once a person decides they don't care if they live or die they are capable of anything. The problem most people have in dealing with them is that we do care if we live or die. This will always give them the advantage.
I don't think they were combat veterans but were in the Army in the early 70's. They actually met each other while MP's at Ft. Campbell.
They both had family problems with divorces and spousal suicides...etc. They just didn't give a rip anymore.
They both had family problems with divorces and spousal suicides...etc. They just didn't give a rip anymore.
El Tejon
Member
They had decided to give up on life and were ready to die. Platt was a "natural fighter" personality type. They had both done a lot of practice with their firearms prior to the fight.
Cosmoline
Member
IIRC, most of the damage to the FBI agents was done with the Mini-14. Is this such a surprise? What kind of fool brings a handgun--ANY handgun-- to a rifle fight? How this episode equates into a need for a bigger handgun (the 10mm) is beyond me, but then I don't work for the gov'ment.
Yeah, here it is:
Richard Manauzzi Injured (unspecified injuries).
Gordon McNeill Seriously injured by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and neck
Edmundo Mireles Seriously injured by a .223 gunshot wound to the left forearm.
Gilbert Orrantia Injured by shrapnel and debris produced by a .223 bullet near miss.
John Hanlon Seriously injured by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and groin.
Benjamin Grogan, 53 Killed by a .223 gunshot wound to the chest.
Gerald Dove, 30 Killed by two .223 gunshot wounds to the head.
Ron Risner Uninjured.
SEE A PATERN THERE, FOLKS??
Get a rifle or get out of the way!
Yeah, here it is:
Richard Manauzzi Injured (unspecified injuries).
Gordon McNeill Seriously injured by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and neck
Edmundo Mireles Seriously injured by a .223 gunshot wound to the left forearm.
Gilbert Orrantia Injured by shrapnel and debris produced by a .223 bullet near miss.
John Hanlon Seriously injured by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and groin.
Benjamin Grogan, 53 Killed by a .223 gunshot wound to the chest.
Gerald Dove, 30 Killed by two .223 gunshot wounds to the head.
Ron Risner Uninjured.
SEE A PATERN THERE, FOLKS??
Get a rifle or get out of the way!
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
We train our police, but time and time again when the police (all sort of law enforcement for that matter) come up against bad guys who are prepared and especially bad guys who are prepared and very willing to do battle without concern for their own lives, when that happens, the LEOs are often overwhelmed.
The agents who performed the stop in the Miami incident really performed horribly. Here I am not referring to how they did combat or weapons they chose. Where their performance was worst was in their preparation for dealing with the bad guys. They knew they were going against bad guys who were more than willing to open fire and who used rifles. None of the agents invovled in the stop had rifles or if they had them, they were located in a place where they could not be obtained, such as the back seat or trunk.
Knowing the bad guys were willing to fire, not all the agents wore ballistic vests and one was trying to put his on during battle. Of course the vest would not have been much good against the .223, but not having them or not having them on just illustrates the lack of preparedness.
The list of preparedness mistakes can be quite long. I realize that these agents never intended to be the takedown agents and that they had a SWAT team on patrol as well and the members of the SWAT team were fully prepared for such a battle, only they showed up about 1-2 minutes after the battle was over.
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North Hollywood is another example of just how bad things can go for the police and community when two bad guys are ready for battle. I have seen repeated reports where the police state they were outgunned. How it is that two bad guys can outgun LAPD for 45 minutes is amazing to me. LAPD was not out gunned as much as they were outprotected. The bad guys had hard armor over soft armor and could absorb a tremendous amount of ballistic punishment including rifle rounds. The police, however, had vests that would stop most handgun rounds, not rifle rounds. The result was that there were countless hits on the bad guys, but only a relative few that actually did harm (something like 10-15 each), and then it was often to more non vital areas such as feet, forearms, etc.
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Whitman in the U. Texas clock tower in the 60s. He picked a spot, picked his weapons, and had a field day. In general, the police had nothing that could handle that sort of situation.
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Bottom line - when the bad guys are prepared for battle, willing to do battle, and have the skills to do battle, then pretty much no department or community is prepared to handle it. Sure, they might be able to roll out a SWAT team that has a 20-30 minute response time, or in the case in Miami where the SWAT team was just a few miles down the road and was already fully suited up and ready for conflict, they still were not there quite fast enough.
Remember, the bad guys often are not concerned with whether or not they will be around to enjoy their retirement years. That sort of perspective makes them very very dangerous as that may mean they would rather die than be captured and so they will either end up victorious or dead and they have prepared to be victorious.
The agents who performed the stop in the Miami incident really performed horribly. Here I am not referring to how they did combat or weapons they chose. Where their performance was worst was in their preparation for dealing with the bad guys. They knew they were going against bad guys who were more than willing to open fire and who used rifles. None of the agents invovled in the stop had rifles or if they had them, they were located in a place where they could not be obtained, such as the back seat or trunk.
Knowing the bad guys were willing to fire, not all the agents wore ballistic vests and one was trying to put his on during battle. Of course the vest would not have been much good against the .223, but not having them or not having them on just illustrates the lack of preparedness.
The list of preparedness mistakes can be quite long. I realize that these agents never intended to be the takedown agents and that they had a SWAT team on patrol as well and the members of the SWAT team were fully prepared for such a battle, only they showed up about 1-2 minutes after the battle was over.
----
North Hollywood is another example of just how bad things can go for the police and community when two bad guys are ready for battle. I have seen repeated reports where the police state they were outgunned. How it is that two bad guys can outgun LAPD for 45 minutes is amazing to me. LAPD was not out gunned as much as they were outprotected. The bad guys had hard armor over soft armor and could absorb a tremendous amount of ballistic punishment including rifle rounds. The police, however, had vests that would stop most handgun rounds, not rifle rounds. The result was that there were countless hits on the bad guys, but only a relative few that actually did harm (something like 10-15 each), and then it was often to more non vital areas such as feet, forearms, etc.
------
Whitman in the U. Texas clock tower in the 60s. He picked a spot, picked his weapons, and had a field day. In general, the police had nothing that could handle that sort of situation.
------
Bottom line - when the bad guys are prepared for battle, willing to do battle, and have the skills to do battle, then pretty much no department or community is prepared to handle it. Sure, they might be able to roll out a SWAT team that has a 20-30 minute response time, or in the case in Miami where the SWAT team was just a few miles down the road and was already fully suited up and ready for conflict, they still were not there quite fast enough.
Remember, the bad guys often are not concerned with whether or not they will be around to enjoy their retirement years. That sort of perspective makes them very very dangerous as that may mean they would rather die than be captured and so they will either end up victorious or dead and they have prepared to be victorious.
Yeah, DNS! A lot of people may think Jeff Cooper is a neanderthal, but he is pretty much in tune with Col. Charles Askins in his thinking, if perhaps a little better spoken (written). Their basic premise is, "If it's gonna be either you or me, I'm gonna do my dadblastedest to make sure it's you!"
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