determining your accurate reload

[BigMacMI]

I read as much as I can about reloading. Have enjoyed the activity thus far and have been able to shoot my own hand-loads at the range. Very satisfying!!!

My question revolves around the concept of finding YOUR guns sweet spot. Is it really that you guys just shoot a bunch and find one groups better? or do you have some sort of system or use a Ransom Rest?

I picked up some 124g projectiles and HP38 to start working up a load. Followed Lee's recommendations of 3.9-4.4 (min-max). Loaded 10 of each at 3.9, 4.1 and 4.3 grains of powder with an OAL that cycles well in my MP9. Shot them, didn't blow my hand off.

My method was that I shot from a supported position (hands on the table, seated) at my local range. All loads had a similar 10 shot group (slow fire) to factory ammunition. Was shooting at 15 yards. All would fit on a 4x6 photo. I did not see an appreciable difference between the loads besides my preference to how the felt.

Is there really some magical formula that I will see groups significantly tighten up? Or do you find that the variability of shooting 2 hands unsupported as most of us do in defensive type shooting introduces more than a 'good' load will actually compensate for?

I guess I am curious your method of determining your magical load. All of my bullets plunked, went bang, didn't have pressure indications and hit the paper pretty well. With my subjective preference being for the load of 4.1grains of HP38 behind the 124g FMJ

I was planning on doing a larger run of 25-50 of each, but thought I would pick the collective brain to see how others go about this.

 

[lpsharp88]

It's been my experience that at normal handgun distances, you won't see some magical improvement dialing in a charge weight. Shooting at rifle distances? Sure

 

[Grumulkin]

It's been my experience that at normal handgun distances, you won't see some magical improvement dialing in a charge weight. Shooting at rifle distances? Sure

Agreed.

You have to decide what works for you as far as technique goes. Some type of machine rest would give the most accurate data but I've never used one. The type of gun and the distance to be shot at, had determined the best technique/position for me. With the usual pistol at up to 25 and maybe 50 yards, I usually shoot off hand. With my Encore handguns at 100 yards and beyond, I test loads off a rest. Rifles all gets tested off some sort of rest.

 

[the Black Spot]

In a nutshell, you can have a super accurate load, but change one component(ex. Switch to different brand of primer) and now your super accurate load groups like buckshot at 40 yds.
In any kind of experimentation, keep as many variables out of the equation.

 

[jmorris]

With my subjective preference

That's pretty much it. I have some loads that will hit inside 8" at 25 yards that I am happy with and other loads that shoot 7/16" @ 100 yards, I am still working on.

If you are happy, that's all that matters.

 

[BigMacMI]

Thank you!

I am basically tring to work up a load for some IDPA next season over the winter. I figure I will test it at 7, 15, 25 yards for 'combat' precision. I will also begin working up a 223 load once I purchase my turret die shell. I will certainly look for more precision out of that one. I shoot a little bit of small scale local 3 gun with iron sights/carry handle. I may grab a scope for that test as the irons seem to have more variability (and I am a significantly less proficient rifle shooter at the time). Not like I am winning anything (did take first one one stage this year tho haha).

I appreciate the insight on the handgun loads. I was planning to purchase a touch lower front sight for my MP9 but wanted to make sure that I was appropriately managing the reloads first. Most 115/124 prints a bit low (point of impact = directly under the circle on front sight). I know this is how S&W sets up their sights, but I would like it to hit at point of aim (interestingly, my MP9C hits like #2, my full-size #3)

 

[Blue68f100]

First your pistol must be able to shoot accurately, most will give you 3-4" at 25 yrds. BE guns with the right ammo will give you < 2" at 50 yrds. With these guns loads do make a difference. My Custom built 1911 45acp will hold a 2" group at 50 yrds with the right ammo and person behind the gun. Ransom rest are used to determine accuracy but there is an art in getting them setup right.

 

[243winxb]

Call your shots. This means , when looking at the sights, focused on the front sight, at the time of firing , you have a good idea where the bullet will hit on target.

How a hand gun is benchrested has a dirrect effect on accuracy. Bag under the trigger guard worked for me. Elbows on the bench. Chest against the bench . With a revolver, protect the bag with a heavy old towel.

But shooting off hand as always worked best. Test the same load on at least 2 different days. Bullseye pistol targets at 25 or 50 yards for score. 10 shots each.

 

[jmorris]

I am basically tring to work up a load for some IDPA next season over the winter.

Try 3.1 of VVN310 with a berry's plated [email protected]"

Or 3.2 of VVN320 "

Or 3.2 of Titegroup "

The best gun game "minor" 9mm loads I have found.

Not the most accurate 9mm load I have but that is not the highest demand in IDPA either or I would have a lot less division champion plaques.

 

[Megan]

Just delete this

 

[LiveLife]

+1 to jmorris post. Many match shooters consider N320 "the" powder for 9mm match loads and Titegroup is less temperature sensitive than W231/HP-38 to better meet power factor requirement. For 125-130 PF loads, Titegroup has produced greater accuracy for me than W231/HP-38.

With Berry's regular plated solid base 124 gr RN and 3.8/4.0 gr of Titegroup, I got 2"-3" shot groups at 25 yards - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...e-pistol-reloaders.746062/page-2#post-9382933

124g ... HP38 ... 3.9-4.4 ... Loaded 10 of each at 3.9, 4.1 and 4.3 grains of powder with an OAL that cycles well in my MP9.

... preference being for the load of 4.1grains of HP38 behind the 124g FMJ

Is there really some magical formula that I will see groups significantly tighten up? I guess I am curious your method of determining your magical load.

Here is my process for determining Max/Working OAL, powder work up to determine reliable slide cycling/case extraction/ejection and accuracy determination:


Determine Max/Working OAL and max case fill to avoid compressed loads:

- Use your barrel to determine the Max OAL
- Function test by feeding/chambering from the magazine to determine the Working OAL
- Subtract bullet length from Working OAL to determine the max case fill and weigh the powder charge to identify the max charge weight for the bullet/powder/OAL combo.
- Reference published load data to see if max case fill powder charge weight is below published max charge (If not, you may end up with a compressed max load and may need to use reduced powder charge or switch to a denser powder)


Powder work up to identify lighter target load and accuracy nodes (This process is for semi-auto pistol which must cycle the slide):

- If your Working OAL is longer than published OAL, use the published start charge
- If your Working OAL is shorter than published, consider reducing your start charge by .2-.3 gr
- Check neck tension by measuring OAL before/after chambering/feeding from the magazine. If bullet setback of more than a few thousandths becomes a persistent problem, you may need to use shorter OAL or larger diameter bullets (If using .355" sized plated bullets, Berrys sells slightly larger sized .3555" bullets and RMR/X-Treme sells .356"/.357" sized 9mm bullets)
- Load 5 rounds of .2-.3 gr incremental charges from start to mid range to first identify the powder charge that will reliably extract/eject spent cases and cycle the slide (This could be your target load)
- Load 10 rounds of .1-.2 gr incremental charges above the load that reliably cycled the slide to max charge
- Using copy paper targets at 7 yards and bingo dauber dots, place dots for each incremental charge (Depending on your shooting level, use 1 dot per paper or 2/4 dots per paper). This process is similar to OCW for rifle.
- Shoot 3-5 round groups of each increment charge and look for accuracy nodes/trends
- Repeat at 15 yards to verify accuracy nodes/trends


Fine tune accurate loads:

- Slug your barrel to determine groove-to-groove diameter. If groove diameter of barrel is .356"+ and using .355" sized plated bullets, consider using larger sized bullets from Berry's (.3555") and RMR/X-Treme (.356"/.357")
- Fine tune your accurate loads further by shortening OAL to increase neck tension for more consistent pressure build and to reduce/eliminate bullet setback (Match loads used by AMU is 115 gr FMJ loaded to 1.130")
- Try using least amount of taper crimp to reduce case neck/mouth to chamber seal time and to eliminate reducing bullet diameter (Since case wall thickness average .011", I usually add .022" to the diameter of bullet for taper crimp amount. So for .355" sized bullet, .377" taper crimp)

 

[LiveLife]

I was planning to purchase a touch lower front sight for my MP9 but wanted to make sure that I was appropriately managing the reloads first.

Good idea. I found as new pistol goes through the break-in wear process the first few thousand rounds, point of impact (POI) can change from point of aim (POA).

When a friend's new 1911 shot higher than POA, he wanted to change the front sight with a lower one. I told him to shoot some rounds before changing the front sight and after about 1000 rounds, the POI moved to match the POA.

 

[BigMacMI]

Good idea. I found as new pistol goes through the break-in wear process the first few thousand rounds, point of impact (POI) can change from point of aim (POA).

When a friend's new 1911 shot higher than POA, he wanted to change the front sight with a lower one. I told him to shoot some rounds before changing the front sight and after about 1000 rounds, the POI moved to match the POA.

Interesting. I had not heard that. so you are suggesting it would DROP more than anything? I certainly have a few thousand rounds through the MP9. The other 5 pistols we own all hit POA, the full size is the only that hits POI (under the dot). I can manage it, but obviously consistency across all guns would be somewhat helpful.

 

[jmorris]

When a friend's new 1911 shot higher than POA, he wanted to change the front sight with a lower one.

Why would he want to do that?

If you make the front sight shorter and the rear sight stays the same, to get them in line you would be raising the muzzle making POI even higher than POA.

A lower rear sight would help lower POI in relation to POA though.

 

[Blue68f100]

Interesting. I had not heard that. so you are suggesting it would DROP more than anything? I certainly have a few thousand rounds through the MP9. The other 5 pistols we own all hit POA, the full size is the only that hits POI (under the dot). I can manage it, but obviously consistency across all guns would be somewhat helpful.

I have seen many guns that all that was needed was to change the bullet weight (115 vs 124 for 9mm )and POA=POI.

 

[Sunray]

A Ransom Rest would be very cool, but they start at $414.30. A sand bag is free.
What's important is that the rest be solid and allows you to shoot without having any part of your hand in a spot that could cause you harm. As in fingers away from cylinder gaps etc.
"...Lee's recommendations..." Lee tests nothing themselves. They use Hodgdon's data for Hodgdon's powders.
Then pick one powder(always use whatever gave the accuracy load in my Lyman book) and load 5(5 is plenty) of each from the Start load to the Max load for the bullet weight, going up by 1/10th of a grain for hand gun. Keep the loads separate. Mark the cases with a Sharpie.
Go shooting. Shoot slowly and deliberately for group only. Your 15 yards will do nicely. Once you've found the most accurate load, sight in.

 

[LiveLife]

If you make the front sight shorter and the rear sight stays the same, to get them in line you would be raising the muzzle making POI even higher than POA.

Ooops. I meant lower POI. It's was late and I had way too much turkey ...

 

[kingmt]

Ooops. I meant lower POI. It's was late and I had way too much turkey ...

Was it a wild turkey?

 

[LiveLife]

Oh no ... I am more like Angry Orchard drinker ... my favorite is Crisp Apple.

 

[RecoilRob]

Agree with the suggestion to go with a heavier projectile if you want the POI to rise. More recoil impulse before the bullet leaves the barrel usually makes them hit a bit higher and might be enough to regulate the sights. Have also found many pistols will function with a milder load using the heavier bullets which end up being a bit easier to shoot rapidly. Of course, if you're loading to a certain Power Factor you have limited leeway there...but to me the heavy bullet at same PF just seem nicer to shoot than the hotter lighter bullets.